Railway workers' pay offer

[Nori1958]

Start off on 35k and go upwards as you train.

Wow, a 15k a year rise, for a trainee.....

[clarethomer]

If there is a rail worker earning £55k as a single parent for example. They are probably worse off than a couple that earns £27.5k each with a child.

The household income is the same but the single parent will pay more income tax because they don't have 2 x personal allowances - £25k roughly of the couples income will be tax free compared to 50% of that for the single person.

The single parent would also not benefit from full child benefit compared to the couple.

Consider shopping/heating, it's not double the price for a couple with a child compared to a single parent.

I support all the strikes that are going on and I hope we can force positive change for the better and using someones existing pay to say whether they deserve a pay rise is a short sighted, unconsidered response given that just because someone has managed to work their way into a career that pays (on face value) better than average salary - it doesn't mean they are not impacted by the cost of living.

[clarethomer]

Wow, a 15k a year rise, for a trainee.....

How much do you think they are worth?

[Quickenthetempo]

Wow, a 15k a year rise, for a trainee.....

Sadly, this country determines wages by how much money you can make others.

Not the best system is it?

[Nori1958]

How much do you think they are worth?

Certainly not 35k for a trainee
I think a 10% rise accross all grades would be fair, with further negotiation regarding a yearly formula for pay increases going forward.
I know one nurse who would be earning over 50k with a 10% rise.

[boatshed bill]

Certainly not 35k for a trainee
I think a 10% rise accross all grades would be fair, with further negotiation regarding a yearly formula for pay increases going forward.
I know one nurse who would be earning over 50k with a 10% rise.

Band 7 or 8 with loads of overtime?

[Nori1958]

ACP... without overtime

[boatshed bill]

ACP... without overtime

The average wage for a nurse in the UK is £37,000

[ClaretDiver]

Absolutely, nurses pay is shocking for what they do.

I’m on minimum wage and I daily transport ‘prescious cargo’ to and from their appointments for things ranging from outpatients through to chemo etc, all we are asking for is a fair wage for what we do…I have had 2 patients die on my vehicle in the last few weeks and we could do nothing but stand and watch because they had DNAR’ in place…heartbreaking!

[Nori1958]

The average wage for a nurse in the UK is £37,000

Which means some get paid more with promotion, training, university courses.... They started on around 48k, been doing it for over a year, so may have had an increment, but even if not 10% takes them over 50k

[claret2018]

Which means some get paid more with promotion, training, university courses.... They started on around 48k, been doing it for over a year, so may have had an increment, but even if not 10% takes them over 50k

What’s wrong with paying an experienced senior nurse over £50k? It’s not a huge salary at all.

[boatshed bill]

Which means some get paid more with promotion, training, university courses.... They started on around 48k, been doing it for over a year, so may have had an increment, but even if not 10% takes them over 50k

I know a bloke who lives in a council house and drives a Rolls Royce

[Nori1958]

What’s wrong with paying an experienced senior nurse over £50k? It’s not a huge salary at all.

Did I say there was anything wrong?

[clarethomer]

Certainly not 35k for a trainee
I think a 10% rise accross all grades would be fair, with further negotiation regarding a yearly formula for pay increases going forward.
I know one nurse who would be earning over 50k with a 10% rise.

We need an NHS that attracts people into it, we need a climate where we then retain those people. If people can't have a quality of life they aspire to but can get it elsewhere - to have a low paid NHS impacts us all at some point.

Consider they have spent 3 years of university at £30k of debt - not being able to really work through that time either for me should show a higher salary than a role where you can walk into the job without a degree.

£11 an hour on a 37 hr week is £21,164 a year. I saw a job advertising for a cleaner at a Wetherspoon for £10.90 an hour as an example.

There are probably roles within the NHS outside of those that require medical degree that pay more without a degree too.

You could get that in many industries as a trainee without a degree.

That tells me that the nursing - you say trainee, I say newly qualified with 3 years of training and study/supervision is worth more than where they are today given they will have student debt, annual renewal of their licence to work etc.

[Nori1958]

We need an NHS that attracts people into it, we need a climate where we then retain those people. If people can't have a quality of life they aspire to but can get it elsewhere - to have a low paid NHS impacts us all at some point.

Consider they have spent 3 years of university at £30k of debt - not being able to really work through that time either for me should show a higher salary than a role where you can walk into the job without a degree.

£11 an hour on a 37 hr week is £21,164 a year. I saw a job advertising for a cleaner at a Wetherspoon for £10.90 an hour as an example.

There are probably roles within the NHS outside of those that require medical degree that pay more without a degree too.

You could get that in many industries as a trainee without a degree.

That tells me that the nursing - you say trainee, I say newly qualified with 3 years of training and study/supervision is worth more than where they are today given they will have student debt, annual renewal of their licence to work etc.

A lot of nursing degrees, and masters course are paid for by the NHS, at no cost to the student.
As I said higher up, discussions are needed to find a yearly formula for pay increases.. This could include newly qualified nurses able to climb the pay scales quicker if that's what they think is required

[boatshed bill]

Band 5 nurse (with relevant degree) starts at approximately £27,000 can rise to just under £33,000

[clarethomer]

My household income doesn't get jack from the government and nor should it when I see what others are going through. we are lucky and it doesn't mean that I couldn't be in that position in the future. Our family is very active supporting local charities and very hands on with a local food bank, so we get to see and experience what poverty truly is and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Over the last 3 years - it's dragged more and more people into a world they thought they would never have seen where they would probably have laughed at the thought of needing the services of a food bank.

Nurses, teachers, people who would say they were once able to have a comfortable life no longer can. That is the context of the issues.

The government talk about reducing inflation and therefore not paying more to help do this. This in itself suggests if inflation is reduced, it will solve the issue - it won't.

Inflation is a 12 monthly measure and therefore for inflation to truly come down where something costs the same or less than it did 12 months ago - we need deflation - which we won't want to get as that has other impacts that aren't good for the economy either.

To help explain why I support the strikes

If your shopping cost £100 last year - it costs £111 roughly today using the standard measurement of inflation (reality is that food inflation is much higher than this).

If this time next year its presented that inflation is at 5% - that is 5% on top of the £111 - So your shop now costs £116.55.

If your salary has only gone up by 1% each year then in that time the £100 you had to buy your shopping is now is a little of £102.01 You are still £14.54 worse off.

This compounds over time. That is the issue and it's not right. I'm probably part of the I'm alright jack crowd based on what I earn but I am fully behind you all that are choosing to strike. We shouldn't have division when it comes down to accepting that food banks are needed and that people are choosing to heat or eat.

[Zlatan]

A lot of nursing degrees, and masters course are paid for by the NHS, at no cost to the student.
As I said higher up, discussions are needed to find a yearly formula for pay increases.. This could include newly qualified nurses able to climb the pay scales quicker if that's what they think is required

funny that... already done. It was called Agenda For Change almost 20 years ago to bring all the various pay schemes across the country into line https://www.nhsemployers.org/articles/pay-scales-202223

All your required info will be here, and easy to search too - I also think the £37k average is a little high from the info I have found, closer to £33k as an average.

Bottom line is the vast majority of health care workers in the NHS are not remunerated appropriately and it doesn't help when you have government ministers going on TV and lying about salaries etc to paint a false picture for those people who will just lap up what they state as gospel. Yes, some nurses will earn upwards of £50k (and they will deserve that), most will not and deserve more.

Anyway, its a similar issue with the Rail workers - people selectively picking out drivers salaries from government minister TV appearances and taking it as gospel, without understanding that again the majority of rail workers are not drivers and are not on massive salaries. It drives an agenda which is corrupt and being held to account by the union, who I fully support.

[clarethomer]

A lot of nursing degrees, and masters course are paid for by the NHS, at no cost to the student.
As I said higher up, discussions are needed to find a yearly formula for pay increases.. This could include newly qualified nurses able to climb the pay scales quicker if that's what they think is required

Which degrees and courses are paid for by the NHS in Nursing?

Certainly wasn't last time I looked for someone within my wider family wanting to get into it. They used to cover the tuition and pay bursary. Not today as far as I am aware.

Still doesn't justify the starting wage when you consider the differential of pay you get.

[boatshed bill]

Which degrees and courses are paid for by the NHS in Nursing?

Certainly wasn't last time I looked for someone within my wider family wanting to get into it. They used to cover the tuition and pay bursary. Not today as far as I am aware.

Still doesn't justify the starting wage when you consider the differential of pay you get.

Correct.

[ClaretDiver]

Just been informed we are going on strike on 21st and 28th December

[Nori1958]

Which degrees and courses are paid for by the NHS in Nursing?

Certainly wasn't last time I looked for someone within my wider family wanting to get into it. They used to cover the tuition and pay bursary. Not today as far as I am aware.

Still doesn't justify the starting wage when you consider the differential of pay you get.

The one I know has done a 2yr masters degree fully funded by NHS in the past 3 years

Certainly advertised on TV for new entrants

I've sat in several university welcome speeches that have talked about fully funded degree courses for nurses, depends how desperate thay are for new entrants as to what they pay for.

[pushpinpussy]

Sack all those that strike and replace them with the military or replace them with illegal immigrants who want to work (necessary qualifications, can't be difficult to become a train driver or a nurse) and who would be grateful of the job and pay packet.

[NewClaret]

Anyway, its a similar issue with the Rail workers - people selectively picking out drivers salaries from government minister TV appearances and taking it as gospel, without understanding that again the majority of rail workers are not drivers and are not on massive salaries. It drives an agenda which is corrupt and being held to account by the union, who I fully support.

Just shortened the quote because it was a long post Zlatan.

Are the Unions requesting scaled pay rises or blanket pay rises?

If you assume inflation is temporary (it will undoubtedly fall because the oil price - a key driver - has reduced significantly), the question is how do you support your workforce in the short-term initially, and how do you ensure the worst off are best supported?

To your point, I think the issue here is the public make perceptions around the highest earners, who often earn more than themselves. If you’re a minimum wage retail worker, unable to get in to work over Christmas because of rail strikes (and therefore losing your own meagre wages), £50k for a nurse or £65k for a train driver will feel a huge sum.

If the unions were discussing big rises for the masses (say 10%) but smaller ones (say 1-2%) for the higher earners, it would help with that issue. The other angle on this would be to argue for a large one-off payment that recognises the inflationary pressures this year will likely recede. In my experience, a lot of private companies did that but are not paying any/or a very small annual pay rises.

Obviously this is only relevant to the pay element of the dispute and there are other factors at play too.

[fidelcastro]

Sack all those that strike and replace them with the military or replace them with illegal immigrants who want to work (necessary qualifications, can't be difficult to become a train driver or a nurse) and who would be grateful of the job and pay packet.

So we can pay the workers even less, you mean?

Yeah, pretend plutocrats like you would love that!

[clarethomer]

The one I know has done a 2yr masters degree fully funded by NHS in the past 3 years

Certainly advertised on TV for new entrants

I've sat in several university welcome speeches that have talked about fully funded degree courses for nurses, depends how desperate thay are for new entrants as to what they pay for.

That may be the case where someone working for the NHS has been funded some additional qualifications but

https://www.uclan.ac.uk/undergraduate/c ... lsrc=aw.ds

The prices are on there.

https://www.ljmu.ac.uk/study/courses/un ... lt-nursing

and here too...

They are desperate for nurses now

[ClaretDiver]

Sack all those that strike and replace them with the military or replace them with illegal immigrants who want to work (necessary qualifications, can't be difficult to become a train driver or a nurse) and who would be grateful of the job and pay packet.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That’s all I can say to that!

[Nori1958]

Just been informed we are going on strike on 21st and 28th December

Out of interest, are you a trained paramedic, or employed as a driver?

[ClaretDiver]

Out of interest, are you a trained paramedic, or employed as a driver?

I am Patient Transport, Scheduled Care

[Zlatan]

Out of interest, are you a trained paramedic, or employed as a driver?

are you purposefully trying to hit a nerve? there are various levels of paramedics and ambulance technicians -all of which would take offence at being called a "driver"

[ClaretDiver]

are you purposefully trying to hit a nerve? there are various levels of paramedics and ambulance technicians -all of which would take offence at being called a "driver"

Uneducated! Not you Zlatan!

[claret2018]

Sack all those that strike and replace them with the military or replace them with illegal immigrants who want to work (necessary qualifications, can't be difficult to become a train driver or a nurse) and who would be grateful of the job and pay packet.

Obvious trolling aside, there’s mileage in the idea of getting the military to help out in understaffed domestic projects. I’m surprised we don’t see it more often.

[Nori1958]

are you purposefully trying to hit a nerve? there are various levels of paramedics and ambulance technicians -all of which would take offence at being called a "driver"

Give over, Iam asking a genuine question, to find out who it is that's going on strike
There are people employed as patient transfer drivers, taking people to and from hospital for appointments

And there are fully trained paramedics who drive ambulances

So no, Iam not trying to hit a nerve, and the poster has kindly answered my question

[Nori1958]

I am Patient Transport, Scheduled Care

Thanks..

[ClaretDiver]

Give over, Iam asking a genuine question, to find out who it is that's going on strike
There are people employed as patient transfer drivers, taking people to and from hospital for appointments

And there are fully trained paramedics who drive ambulances

So no, Iam not trying to hit a nerve, and the poster has kindly answered my question

And I am incredibly proud of what I do, without us, many patients would not get to appointments or treatment. I am still part on the Ambulance Service but reading some of the comments recently on social media I’m not really sure I want to progress my career towards CCA or Para….

[Nori1958]

And I am incredibly proud of what I do, without us, many patients would not get to appointments or treatment. I am still part on the Ambulance Service but reading some of the comments recently on social media I’m not really sure I want to progress my career towards CCA or Para….

And so you should be. Several elderly relatives relied on you guys for many years, and would have been lost without the service, don't do yourself down, and ignore social media.

[box_of_frogs]

Obvious trolling aside, there’s mileage in the idea of getting the military to help out in understaffed domestic projects. I’m surprised we don’t see it more often.

I’m sure the lads and lasses on circa £22k-£27k a year following their 3.75% pay rise will be delighted to lose their leave (again) and step in for those on strike.

[lakedistrictclaret]

I am Patient Transport, Scheduled Care

Patient Transport is a vital component in the NHS infrastructure.
Five years ago I had an ultrasound scan in Newcastle. They don"t have the equipment in Cumbria. I couldn't drive myself because sedation was compulsory. The late mrs lakedistrict wasn't well enough to drive me. Ok, I could probably have got a friend to drive me, but it's a 170 mile round trip so it's a lot to ask.
I used Patient Transport, and was very grateful for it.
So, thanks ClaretDiver, and all your colleagues. You do a great job.

[Tall Paul]

I’m sure the lads and lasses on circa £22k-£27k a year following their 3.75% pay rise will be delighted to lose their leave (again) and step in for those on strike.

They should join a union

[Firthy]

What’s wrong with paying an experienced senior nurse over £50k? It’s not a huge salary at all.

And here is the problem (and this is not aimed at you claret2018) but wages in certain sectors have got out of hand. People these days don't think that £50k is a huge salary. Sorry but in my book £50k is massive. Me and the missus have 2 works pensions and 2 state pensions and £50k is more than all 4 of them added together.

[Nori1958]

They should join a union

They can't

[ClaretDiver]

Patient Transport is a vital component in the NHS infrastructure.
Five years ago I had an ultrasound scan in Newcastle. They don"t have the equipment in Cumbria. I couldn't drive myself because sedation was compulsory. The late mrs lakedistrict wasn't well enough to drive me. Ok, I could probably have got a friend to drive me, but it's a 170 mile round trip so it's a lot to ask.
I used Patient Transport, and was very grateful for it.
So, thanks ClaretDiver, and all your colleagues. You do a great job.

Thank you LDC! Hope all is well!

[box_of_frogs]

They should join a union

Great joke! (I assume you weren’t being serious)

[Nori1958]

And here is the problem (and this is not aimed at you claret2018) but wages in certain sectors have got out of hand. People these days don't think that £50k is a huge salary. Sorry but in my book £50k is massive. Me and the missus have 2 works pensions and 2 state pensions and £50k is more than all 4 of them added together.

I do wonder what jobs people have when they don't think 50k is a huge amount

[TheFamilyCat]

Thank you LDC! Hope all is well!

Have you thought of changing your user name to ClaretDriver?

[Zlatan]

I do wonder what jobs people have when they don't think 50k is a huge amount

it really isn't, especially after tax. And those earning that most likely have the associated stress that goes with the responsibility they're being paid for.

[claret2018]

I do wonder what jobs people have when they don't think 50k is a huge amount

This is the problem with workers in the U.K. £50k 20 years would have been a high wage, now it’s not. Wages in this country have been stagnating for well over a decade now and when people try and do something about it they get called greedy and sniped at.

[ClaretDiver]

Have you thought of changing your user name to ClaretDriver?

[Nori1958]

This is the problem with workers in the U.K. £50k 20 years would have been a high wage, now it’s not. Wages in this country have been stagnating for well over a decade now and when people try and do something about it they get called greedy and sniped at.

It's quite a way above the average salary, so I guess a lot of workers will see it as a huge amount

[lakedistrictclaret]

Thank you LDC! Hope all is well!

Thanks CD. I had a reoccurence of my 2009 cancer but a brutal combination of chemotherapy and radiotherapy zapped it.

I have an annual endoscopy now. No problems so far!