Nori1958 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:10 am

Funded how?

Nori1958 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:04 am

...the rich

Nori1958 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:10 am

Funded how?

Maybe the government could be less wasteful with our taxes?

Tall Paul wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:14 am

Maybe it should start happening and that's what the workers are trying to change by withdrawing their labour.

I hadn't seen that that was one of their demands

Maybe it should, but it never will happen, if railworkers get a rise, fare and transport costs will go up, leading to rises in the price of goods
If royal mail workers get a rise, postal costs will go up
If nurses get a rise taxes will go up

They eventually will get rises, but they have to be sensible ones... 18% pay rises are just not feasible at this time.

Perhaps some knowledge of the profits made by the various operators would help get a better picture of the situation, and knowledge of the actual demands might help too.

After 12 years of stagnation, at best, and a constant erosion of pay in relation to inflation, its about time the balance was redressed.
Good luck to any group of workers with the balls to stand up to this government.

Nori1958 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:30 am

I hadn't seen that that was one of their demands

Maybe it should, but it never will happen, if railworkers get a rise, fare and transport costs will go up, leading to rises in the price of goods
If royal mail workers get a rise, postal costs will go up
If nurses get a rise taxes will go up

They eventually will get rises, but they have to be sensible ones... 18% pay rises are just not feasible at this time.

Those rises in fares, prices and taxes will be purely political decisions not ones made out of necessity.

evensteadiereddie wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:34 am

Those rises in fares, prices and taxes will be purely political decisions not ones made out of necessity.

Government don't set rail fares, or food prices etc etc

Funny how during the pandemic these public service workers were deemed essential, yet when it comes to paying them a decent wage those in power don't value them enough to fund pay rises.

I fully understand people's frustrations regarding these strikes, but if you are annoyed then take your frustrations out on the government of the day who could resolve this situation if they so wished.

On the issue of travelling to matches I'd always try and keep alternative modes of travel in mind, as you simply can't be certain if the trains will be running or not.

Nori1958 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:03 am

Government don't set rail fares, or food prices etc etc

Yes they do. 45% of train fairs are regulated by the govt controlling and capping how much rail company's can raise fairs each year. The govt link it to inflation and the RPI and one of the issues the workers are highlighting is that the govt have continued to allow fairs to increase in line with inflation whilst wages have stagnated with the net result being that the extra money the public pay for rail fairs goes into profits for the shareholders and not the workers pocket

Nori1958 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:03 am

Government don't set rail fares, or food prices etc etc

Government determine inflation plus x price rise policy.

Other Govs decide...this is a transport use to encourage, for the sake of the economy.

tiger76 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:06 am

Funny how during the pandemic these public service workers were deemed essential, yet when it comes to paying them a decent wage those in power don't value them enough to fund pay rises.

I fully understand people's frustrations regarding these strikes, but if you are annoyed then take your frustrations out on the government of the day who could resolve this situation if they so wished.

On the issue of travelling to matches I'd always try and keep alternative modes of travel in mind, as you simply can't be certain if the trains will be running or not.

They are essential, not just in the pandemic
I value them enough for them to have a decent wage
However Iam also sensible enough to realise that these pay increases need funding, and that will affect every single one of us
It's OK posters coming on saying the rich should pay, bosses should pay, government should use taxes better.... All well and good, but we're talking about the here and now, and none of those are happening any time soon, so I ask again, is everyone happy to pay more for almost everything to fund these pay increases?

Nori1958 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:16 am

They are essential, not just in the pandemic
I value them enough for them to have a decent wage
However Iam also sensible enough to realise that these pay increases need funding, and that will affect every single one of us
It's OK posters coming on saying the rich should pay, bosses should pay, government should use taxes better.... All well and good, but we're talking about the here and now, and none of those are happening any time soon, so I ask again, is everyone happy to pay more for almost everything to fund these pay increases?

I guess it's comes down to how much the public value these services, and the unions would argue there is money available if it's spent in the right places.

Rail fares have roughly doubled since I last travelled pre-pandemic, so where is all that extra revenue going for starters.

Nobody is ever happier paying more in tax, however if folks can see a return on their additional contributions I suspect many would on balance be prepared to fund them.

In real terms public sector workers have suffered a major decrease in their pay for about a decade, so it's no wonder some are becoming fed up.

And these ongoing strikes aren't just down to salaries they are also about terms and conditions the workers are fighting for.

Like everyone else I'd dearly love for this industrial action to end as it's hardly helping the wider economy which also affects all of us ultimately.

But for that to happen both sides need to tone down the rhetoric and get round the table and talk in a sensible grown-up manner instead of hurling insults at each other.

Let’s hope a compromise can be reached and soon, both sides need to give a little more. Whilst they’re at it pay the Nurses a decent living wage. We have for many years enjoyed a wonderful NHS and it’s about time all parties sat down and discussed the current problems with a view to resolving it. Nurses and Doctors leaving is not what we want. Get the NHS right, keep people healthy and in turn we have more people working, boosting the economy. If all members of government don’t get together and soon this is only going to get worse.

Drivers are paid alot, more than other key workers, so don't see their need for a strike.

How many people still buy tickets from a person? Can see why these are being phased out.

Driverless trains are common in other countries, and even in UK, so this should be rolled out more.

Normal people can't get to work/ school/ hospital due to strikes, which in effect last twice as long as services the following days (s) are all impacted. Currently got a 3% payrise, and within our budgets next year is 3%, so not sure how I'm meant to afford to pay more so others can get a payrise?

Increasing pay will just fuel the inflation.

tiger76 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:33 am

I guess it's comes down to how much the public value these services, and the unions would argue there is money available if it's spent in the right places.

Rail fares have roughly doubled since I last travelled pre-pandemic, so where is all that extra revenue going for starters.

Nobody is ever happier paying more in tax, however if folks can see a return on their additional contributions I suspect many would on balance be prepared to fund them.

In real terms public sector workers have suffered a major decrease in their pay for about a decade, so it's no wonder some are becoming fed up.

And these ongoing strikes aren't just down to salaries they are also about terms and conditions the workers are fighting for.

Like everyone else I'd dearly love for this industrial action to end as it's hardly helping the wider economy which also affects all of us ultimately.

But for that to happen both sides need to tone down the rhetoric and get round the table and talk in a sensible grown-up manner instead of hurling insults at each other.

You make some really good points here Tiger.

Train fares are crazy. My company has paid £259 and £350 for tickets for me to go to London over the last few weeks. There’s just no way I’d ever pay that much personally. I usually try to go to London with the family at Christmas but train fares have knocked that on the head. I’m honestly shocked anyone can afford to travel on them and I don’t even consider it anymore.

In respect to T&C’s, I agree, although I think there’s a massive disconnect between T&C’s in the public and private sector. Like the poor chap on here who had to cancel his away tickets as his company hadn’t got work - for many, that’s it - no work, no pay. And pay rises are infrequent, if ever. I certainly haven’t had one this year and am just happy to be in work.

A bit like Evri workers. They can’t strike because they’re self-employed. But the odd thing is that companies are publicly “leaving” Royal Mail to the Evri’s of the world (who I’d argue employ on worse terms) due to RM’s unreliability - so they win.

For the first year this year, we’ve decided to send e-cards for Christmas, unsure whether ours would arrive. My wife has just commented on how much easier it is. I doubt we’ll go back, so that’s charities and RM out of pocket in future years.

Strikes benefit nobody - we’ll get to a point where there’s one postal service a week and far fewer trains running, with fewer passengers because they can’t afford to travel. And for that reason I hope there’s swift resolutions to all the industrial action before it destroys these great British industries completely.

Evri are worse than royal mail though, it's Hermes that was rebranded to Evri and it's remained toss

beddie wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:40 am

Let’s hope a compromise can be reached and soon, both sides need to give a little more. Whilst they’re at it pay the Nurses a decent living wage. We have for many years enjoyed a wonderful NHS and it’s about time all parties sat down and discussed the current problems with a view to resolving it. Nurses and Doctors leaving is not what we want. Get the NHS right, keep people healthy and in turn we have more people working, boosting the economy. If all members of government don’t get together and soon this is only going to get worse.

I think I read that to give the pay rises demanded by the nhs would cost £700 million.
I'm not against them getting pay rises but that's a lot of money.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:05 am

I think I read that to give the pay rises demanded by the nhs would cost £700 million.
I'm not against them getting pay rises but that's a lot of money.

it is a lot of money Sid, but it is necessary. I'd genuinely love to know where we spent the gargantuan amount of £37BN on the track and trace - it kind of puts their pay request into context. Lets also not forget the £Ms wasted on PPE in contracts with dodgy minister's friends. And the slight of hand for the cost of living crisis fund for fuel - so the government "helps" us by giving us money to pay the energy firms more money - where does that money end up...? with the energy firms shareholders as profits. It's all politics isn't it, and the ultimate deterioration of public services and standards will affect everyone not wealthy enough to buy an alternative - which is most of us

Many people deserve a pay rise, some more than others. It's difficult to separate the various claims.

Many Nurses deserve a pay rise, because of the crap and stress they have to work under. I was in the NHS for 12 years in the 80's/90's, and the job made old woman of young. On the other side of the coin, not all Nurses are in a stressful position, and due to grading, not all Nurses are paid badly. They deserve a rise, but the biggest problem still remains the thankless punishment of the job.

Rail workers are different again. I know not every Rail Worker drives a train, but those that did were earning 65,000 a year when they last struck, about 4 years ago. I've never worked on the Rails, so can't comment on conditions, but 65,000 a year can't be that bad, and if they don't appreciate it, I'm sure there are others who would. Does that justify them not getting a pay rise, NO, but it should be taken into consideration when these claims are looked at.

We've lived through almost 15 years of hardly any inflation, anyone lucky enough to have money in the bank will tell you it might as well have been under the mattress. Therefore historical pay rises are practically irrelevant. Now inflation is increasing dramatically, through Brexit/Covid/Ukraine, there is a need for people to have their pay, at a minimum, keep pace. The problem is inflation busting pay rises have a knock on effect, both on the economy, and jobs, and if not controlled are self defeating. The fewer paying into the system, combined with more taking out, and inflation will just spiral, more jobs will go, and so the circle continues.

The first port of any government call today, should be setting a budget to control the economy, trying to spare as much money as possible for the likes of the Nurses, but stopping short of putting this country headlong into a recession. I know it isn't easy for some, but anyone dancing down the street because they got say a 10% pay rise next week, would be crying in their pillows in 2 years, when we all pay for it.

Nori1958 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:03 am

Government don't set rail fares, or food prices etc etc

"Political" in the sense of not being necessary for the companies to survive but to keep their profits up and the shareholders happy.
Keeping public pay low, apart from MPs natch, is a purely political decision and the sooner that cycle is destroyed, the better.

The Mrs ordered tickets online for her trip to Woking last month ... she managed by accident to press a wrong button online and the tickets were issued for the wrong days ... she went into Settle Station and the Chap in the ticket office sorted it for her ... removing People from places like that will cause problems.

On her return the train she was supposed to travel on (her tickets were off peak) was cancelled and a person in Kings X station ticket office sorted it for her ...

Machines will not help people in these situations ... Real people in Ticket offices can ...

Boss Hogg wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:58 am

I know some train drivers. They are on very good money.

Presumably you accept that to run an efficient and safe rail service we need a lot more workers than simply drivers?
Why single out the better paid members of the team? (Apart from the managers etc)

Zlatan wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:00 pm

it is a lot of money Sid, but it is necessary. I'd genuinely love to know where we spent the gargantuan amount of £37BN on the track and trace - it kind of puts their pay request into context. Lets also not forget the £Ms wasted on PPE in contracts with dodgy minister's friends. And the slight of hand for the cost of living crisis fund for fuel - so the government "helps" us by giving us money to pay the energy firms more money - where does that money end up...? with the energy firms shareholders as profits. It's all politics isn't it, and the ultimate deterioration of public services and standards will affect everyone not wealthy enough to buy an alternative - which is most of us

£37 billion was allocated to track and trace, I'm not sure that was the whole amount spent.

PPE - desperate times meant they tried to get it from everywhere and sadly unscrupulous people took advantage.

Energy - the gov had to do something, maybe it wasn't the right thing but they did something.

Public services - yes they need the money, but people demand pay rises and the public don't often consider exactly how much it will cost.

Just to give you all a taster of where the evil is (spoiler, it’s not the worker)

£21bn is the yearly cost of our entire rail network operations and we (as taxpayers) pay for approximately 75% of this cost. Last year first group paid £500m in dividends out, despite the government covering an extra £8bn for lost passengers due to covid to keep workers in jobs.

In the last 6 years the train operators and leasing stock companies have taken £8.6bn in dividends, whilst putting £1.6bn into the network investment and improvement (whilst national rail paid in £5bn). The whole industry is a cash cow and we are paying for it, yet it seems some think it’s all the lowly paid workers fault.

The rail operators will want to see some real progress on ticket office closures and the implementation of driverless trains.

RMT want the extra money without any prospect of roles on the railway being diminished.

More strikes announced over Xmas now following rejection of improved offer

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:42 pm

PPE - desperate times meant they tried to get it from everywhere and sadly unscrupulous people took advantage.

Not hard to trace where it went. Michelle Mone has got £29 million in an off shore account, for example. Maybe put the same effort they do into minor benefit fraud, be amazing what they might find.

This about covers it. Don’t think for one minute this is just about money. The rail companies agreed to the T&Cs and now they want them scrapped without paying the money. Unions would accept far less than inflation without the tie ins. You’d have to be a mug to accept 8% over 2 years and putting your job at risk at the same time.

Similar to Pearcey!

So I’ve been asked by a couple of friends if The RMT have rejected an 8% payrise, the answer is NO and as usual it’s false media…

My work Union has refused the following and I’ll explain why….

4% increases for years 2022/2023

So not a full 8% pay rise, but 4% for this year and 4% for next year…

Those pay-rises are ONLY guaranteed IF we accept the following:

1. That all Workforce Changes are
accepted without reservation or
industrial action
2. Closure of all ticket offices and
displacement of all retail staff
3. A mass job severance programme
4. Driver-Only Operation of trains in all
companies and on all passenger
services ( so no Train Guards)
5. New arrangements for mandatory
Sunday working
6. A review of all On-Train Catering
services leading to cutbacks in
provision and jobs
7. New Attendance Management scheme
8. New annual leave and sick pay
arrangements

This industrial action for me and the majority of my colleagues is nothing to do with a pay rise….. we are fighting for our physical jobs, that won’t exist if the government and The DFT go ahead with the above changes.

So, I won’t sign away my life for a 4% pay rise and I’m 100% behind the industrial action and will be striking next week….

RMT = Right Miserable Twits

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:42 pm

PPE - desperate times meant they tried to get it from everywhere and sadly unscrupulous people took advantage.

Think it was more a case of unscrupulous (corrupt) ministers and members of the government deliberately allowing unscrupulous (there mates) people take advantage.
But let’s not pretend that only one of these parties made fortunes from PPE.
That’s rarely how it works when handing out large government contracts

Hopefully all thoser working in marine transport will be looking at this and fully supporting strike action.

Complaint about low paid rail staff turning down an insulting offer yet not complaining about bankers bonuses & massive tax breaks for the banks, sums up the state of the UK. Laughing stocks of Europe. Couple of weeks ago the government wanted you to hate the immigrants now it’s hate the strikers, there is a continual theme to the chaos.

I reckon they're "doing an Arthur" - picking the wrong fight at the wrong time.

Funny, I think the exact opposite is the case - government have underestimated the strength of support, the usual attack lines haven't worked and people have had enough of rampant profiteering by those at the top. True of the media too, who can't seem to deal with a spokesperson who actually knows his detail and is delivering a few home truths.

basil6345789 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:24 pm

I reckon they're "doing an Arthur" - picking the wrong fight at the wrong time.

Agreed. People have missed out on 2 Christmas get togethers
Making some miss another isn't the best tactic in gaining public support

I can’t understand why anybody wouldn’t be supporting the train staff? Argumentative types that no doubt don’t even use the service, or haven’t bothered to check the facts

Isn't the whole idea of strikes to cause the maximum disruption at the worse possible times for people, so that they get what they want?

And I'm not sure that public support is waning just yet either

They are in a pretty unique position at the moment and I'm not surprised that they are maximising their power while they can

Its not like the train companies were running anything like an efficient and acceptable service before is it?

No sympathy from me. Relatively good salaries and I’ve never, ever seen a rail worker rushing around, going out of their way to help customers.
Train driver neighbour was made redundant a few years ago. Immediately started working on a contract basis. Since extended his house and now has a 4x4 BMW, Mercedes and sports Audi

Oh well, that's evidence enough for me....

I live next door to the CEO of Avanti. He’s dripping in gold, has 4 Rolls Royces and eats pheasant for breakfast.
If that’s not proof that the rail workers should accept the pay offer and not go on strike I’m not sure what is.

This thread is resembling the letters page in Viz more and more every day.

Big Vinny K wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:27 am

I live next door to the CEO of Avanti. He’s dripping in gold, has 4 Rolls Royces and eats pheasant for breakfast.
If that’s not proof that the rail workers should accept the pay offer and not go on strike I’m not sure what is.

This thread is resembling the letters page in Viz more and more every day.

So that’s why the Manchester to London ticket prices are so high!!

evensteadiereddie wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:47 am

Oh well, that's evidence enough for me....

no sympathy = I'm jealous

It's been pointed out a thousand times, this strike isn't about the train drivers' salaries (although everyone's obsessed with them) it's the thousands of others that work for the rail companies.

Not got the energy to get into it again, but still 100% behind the rail workers here. Good luck to them.

For those that are standing behind the rail strikes, are you also standing behind the nurses and ambulance staff?

Absolutely.

Being able to campaign for better working conditions and or pay should be a fundamental right.

Bordeauxclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:24 am

Absolutely.

Being able to campaign for better working conditions and or pay should be a fundamental right.

This

ClaretDiver wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:18 am

For those that are standing behind the rail strikes, are you also standing behind the nurses and ambulance staff?

Absolutely, nurses pay is shocking for what they do.

Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:37 am

Absolutely, nurses pay is shocking for what they do.

What would you suggest as a fair wage?

Nori1958 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:52 am

What would you suggest as a fair wage?

Start off on 35k and go upwards as you train.