I can’t stand Pickford, but, give him his dues, he’s normally very reliable for England. Nick Pope is a better ‘club’ goal keeper, though.

David De Gea also has suspect distribution but is still first choice at one of the top clubs.

BurnleyFC wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:28 am

I can’t stand Pickford, but, give him his dues, he’s normally very reliable for England. Nick Pope is a better ‘club’ goal keeper, though.

David De Gea also has suspect distribution but is still first choice at one of the top clubs.

Talk of ten Hag wanting a new keeper as De Gea can’t play out from the back, which is the style he wants to use in the long term.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:33 am

Talk of ten Hag wanting a new keeper as De Gea can’t play out from the back, which is the style he wants to use in the long term.

On the flip side to that is Newcastle. Fair play to Eddie Howe for adopting a pragmatic approach as they are one of the few teams who are playing well yet don't bother with playing out from the back.

Spijed wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:37 am

On the flip side to that is Newcastle. Fair play to Eddie Howe for adopting a pragmatic approach as they are one of the few teams who are playing well yet don't bother with playing out from the back.

Pope has saved lots of points this season. Worth his weight in gold.

Not enough keepers distribute the ball from their hands these days. Can’t remember who it was but I do recall a keeper (in fact may have been Muric) executing a precise overarm throw about 40 yards to the wing. I say they should practice that more than kicking if I’m honest… oh and stopping the ball going in the onion bag… that’s the priority right

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:38 pm

Pope really doesn’t do fine with his feet. Of course he can play simple 10 yard passes, which footballer can’t. But his long kicking is wayward, as in, the rest of the team don’t know which direction the ball will be played, and his biggest weaknesses are his ball control and composure on the ball.

This prevents Pope from playing for one of the very top teams and is ultimately why he is down the pecking order at England, because these teams would have to completely transform their style of play to accommodate him. He wouldn’t fit in Burnley’s current system for the same reason.

Last season Popes completion rate for long passes was 39.5%
He attempted 807, completed 319

He attempted more than anyone else, only 25 more than Pickford, but he his completion % put him 7th in the rankings and 5% better than Pickford's.
Maybe he hit so many long balls after instruction from the coaches/manager, that's just a thought though.

This season he's well down the charts for attempted long balls, down in 10th, and well below Pickford, but his completion % is also down.

Like I said earlier, stats are facts, opinions aren't.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:53 pm

Last season Popes completion rate for long passes was 39.5%
He attempted 807, completed 319

He attempted more than anyone else, only 25 more than Pickford, but he his completion % put him 7th in the rankings and 5% better than Pickford's.
Maybe he hit so many long balls after instruction from the coaches/manager, that's just a thought though.

This season he's well down the charts for attempted long balls, down in 10th, and well below Pickford, but his completion % is also down.

Like I said earlier, stats are facts, opinions aren't.

But stats / data have to be interpreted and used correctly.

If Everton have a small forward who can’t head a ball then of course Pickford’s long distance passing % will be lower. In fact, Richarlison was their striker for most of the season and he’s not exactly a target man is he?

Compare that with Pope hitting the likes of Wood (I believe he won the most headers in the league for a striker), Jay Rod and Barnes.

It’s an example of how not to use stats to back up a claim.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:45 pm

Pope is not good enough with his feet for a possession based team. If he was, he’d have been snapped up by a top team a while back. If you can’t see or understand that then fair enough.

Pickford also is not ‘gash’ at Everton, they would be have been relegated without him last season, he was outstanding.

I remember the game against Chelsea when he saved one with his face. Brave as hell. It started the mini revival that kept them up.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:53 pm

Last season Popes completion rate for long passes was 39.5%
He attempted 807, completed 319

He attempted more than anyone else, only 25 more than Pickford, but he his completion % put him 7th in the rankings and 5% better than Pickford's.
Maybe he hit so many long balls after instruction from the coaches/manager, that's just a thought though.

This season he's well down the charts for attempted long balls, down in 10th, and well below Pickford, but his completion % is also down.

Like I said earlier, stats are facts, opinions aren't.

What do those stats mean? Is a completed pass where the team retains possession or a team mate gets the next touch on the ball? How long is a long pass? How do the stats differentiate between an attempted pass and a clearance. Do the stats take into account the person on the receiving end of the pass? Do the stats show whether the passes were straight down the middle of the pitch or a ball to the touchline with a higher chance of going into touch? Do the stats show the difficulty level of the pass?

Of course stats are great to show certain things, but in this case the stats you have presented absolutely don't factually prove that Pope is a better long passer of the ball than Pickford. It's sometimes worth trusting your eyes. In any case I already said that Pickford's long passing wasn't great, but you replied to a post where I wasn't talking about Pickford. Pope's issue is more his discomfort with the ball at his feet, not how many passes he actually completes.

RVclaret wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:58 pm

But stats / data have to be interpreted and used correctly.

If Everton have a small forward who can’t head a ball then of course Pickford’s long distance passing % will be lower. In fact, Richarlison was their striker for most of the season and he’s not exactly a target man is he?

Compare that with Pope hitting the likes of Wood (I believe he won the most headers in the league for a striker), Jay Rod and Barnes.

It’s an example of how not to use stats to back up a claim.

Most of you don't want stats, apparently your eyes are better.....

That's why people on here cry about Muric, but that stats prove them wrong most of the time

Rileybobs wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:05 pm

What do those stats mean? Is a completed pass where the team retains possession or a team mate gets the next touch on the ball? How long is a long pass? How do the stats differentiate between an attempted pass and a clearance. Do the stats take into account the person on the receiving end of the pass? Do the stats show whether the passes were straight down the middle of the pitch or a ball to the touchline with a higher chance of going into touch? Do the stats show the difficulty level of the pass?

Of course stats are great to show certain things, but in this case the stats you have presented absolutely don't factually prove that Pope is a better long passer of the ball than Pickford. It's sometimes worth trusting your eyes. In any case I already said that Pickford's long passing wasn't great, but you replied to a post where I wasn't talking about Pickford. Pope's issue is more his discomfort with the ball at his feet, not how many passes he actually completes.

You said his passing was wayward and poor, I'm just showing he was making more but still had a half decent completion rate.

I know the stats can't compete with what you're seeing in front of you and they never will for some of you, but the stats are the very thing that show how good he actually is.

Same with Muric, people on here cry about him but the stats show the real Story.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:53 pm

Last season Popes completion rate for long passes was 39.5%
He attempted 807, completed 319

He attempted more than anyone else, only 25 more than Pickford, but he his completion % put him 7th in the rankings and 5% better than Pickford's.
Maybe he hit so many long balls after instruction from the coaches/manager, that's just a thought though.

This season he's well down the charts for attempted long balls, down in 10th, and well below Pickford, but his completion % is also down.

Like I said earlier, stats are facts, opinions aren't.

But remember the old saying ‘there are lies, damn lies and statistics’. As I learned at college many years ago statistics can prove whatever you like depending on how you present them. Statistics may be facts but they are not always the truth. Ive seen in the past statistics used in an argument of opposing views that proved both sides correct, which is impossible. Stats are guidance but not absolute truth.

houseboy wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:09 pm

But remember the old saying ‘there are lies, damn lies and statistics’. As I learned at college many years ago statistics can prove whatever you like depending on how you present them. Statistics may be facts but they are not always the truth. Ive seen in the past statistics used in an argument of opposing views that proved both sides correct, which is impossible. Stats are guidance but not absolute truth.

I'm just highlighting that people who are only using their eyesight for their opinion aren't getting it right most of the time.

It is quite common on football forums for fans to take aim at current or former players and launch a tirade against them without having all of the stats at hand, mainly because a large number of fans don't like the stats side of the game.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:25 pm

I'm just highlighting that people who are only using their eyesight for their opinion aren't getting it right most of the time.

The problem with a stats only approach is that the stats don't record the quality of passes.
Let's face it, our current completed passes are exaggerated by all the short passes around the defensive third. The stats don't tell you that it's working, but you can see that it is.

The keeper who looks truly comfortable with the ball at his feet and makes very few mistakes in the Premier League is Ederson.
Allison has decent distribution but often gets in trouble with his control.
The likes of Lloris and Pickford think they are good with the ball at their feet but cost their teams every season. With Spurs that can be masked a little by the number of goals they score - with Everton it isn’t.

Stats in isolation are dangerous - you have to look at them with other statistics and also context. In footballs case context includes the other players you have at your disposal and their limitations or qualities.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:27 pm

They stayed up by the skin of their teeth, that wasn't all down to Pickford.
The whole team has been under performing for a few seasons prior to this one and this one isn't much better despite them getting better CBs in.
If they stay up again by the skin of their teeth are you going to attribute that to Pickford again?

If he performs like he did last season then yes

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:23 pm

Pope does fine with his feet, always has done, but you won't see it because that's your choice not to see it.

Stats are factual, your opinion is just that.
That's why Pope has gone to a team that plays it out more than we did

Are you ok ?

houseboy wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:09 pm

But remember the old saying ‘there are lies, damn lies and statistics’. As I learned at college many years ago statistics can prove whatever you like depending on how you present them. Statistics may be facts but they are not always the truth. Ive seen in the past statistics used in an argument of opposing views that proved both sides correct, which is impossible. Stats are guidance but not absolute truth.

Selectively presenting facts to prove your version of 'the truth'. Happens pretty much daily in my world.

Casper wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:40 pm

Are you ok ?

I'm perfectly fine, are you ok?

Statistics show that very few people over the age of 99 die.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:57 pm

I'm perfectly fine, are you ok?

Yes thanks

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:08 pm

You said his passing was wayward and poor, I'm just showing he was making more but still had a half decent completion rate.

I know the stats can't compete with what you're seeing in front of you and they never will for some of you, but the stats are the very thing that show how good he actually is.

Same with Muric, people on here cry about him but the stats show the real Story.

Kind of agree with what you are saying on Pope but that statistic in isolation means very little. An extreme example I know but if Pope’s passing completion was 100% but he let 50% of balls roll under his foot and into his goal that would not make him a good keeper. But I agree with you that Pope is an excellent keeper because all the other statistics bear this out. Look how many times he drops the ball from crosses compared to other keepers - it’s rare but even there statistics can be misleading in terms of those keepers who are rooted to their line and rarely even come to collect a ball might have a very high percentage of collecting crosses (we know Pope was fantastic for Burnley because he commanded his area and was only really matched by Courtois when he was at Chelsea)

But where I am not yet convinced is Muric. Don’t want this thread to turn into another Muric debate though so it was just to point out that statistics are not black and white as per the points I have made with Pope. You could list all the keeping statistics for Muric for this season (please don’t !!) and you would still get a big debate on this board as to his performances this season .

Pope is properly shite with his feet, and I mean properly shite.

But he doesn't play in centre midfield, so it's not that much of a problem.

He keeps the ball out of the net as good as anyone. And that's his job (clue's in the name)

Pope should play against France, to give England a chance. England will pay with short arms.

Last thing England need is jitters at the back every time Pope has to use his feet. Good as he is a goalkeeper, he should never play an important competitive game for England. He won't though so it's a none debate.

pope is miles better than pickford.
more aware, taller and more agile, better reflexes, faster to react, the list could go on.
No keeper anywhere can kick with accuracy, this thing about pope is a nonsense.
southgate has stuck with pckford to maintain familiarity within the squad.
luckily for him the outfield players have ensured the team have progressed.
pope would have a mountain to climb now to win over thickneck fans who are obsessed with pickford in the nets. pope should be number one.

Say what you like about Nick Pope, but when I think of Nick Pope I see him shouting in that huddle at the end of last season, "we're not f*****g dead yet!" Top man.

Wile E Coyote wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:06 pm

pope is miles better than pickford.
more aware, taller and more agile, better reflexes, faster to react, the list could go on.
No keeper anywhere can kick with accuracy, this thing about pope is a nonsense.
southgate has stuck with pckford to maintain familiarity within the squad.
luckily for him the outfield players have ensured the team have progressed.
pope would have a mountain to climb now to win over thickneck fans who are obsessed with pickford in the nets. pope should be number one.

I know your late night rants have become something akin to folklore on here, but how on earth can you say Pickford hasn’t been brilliant for England and isn’t fully deserving of his number one spot? Pope had a huge chance to make an impression in the Germany game and royally messed up.

Two years ago, it was fair enough to say Pope was miles better than Pickford. But Pickford now is playing substantially better than two years ago - he's cut out the mistakes (touch wood) - and so I think it's fair enough that he keeps his place.

Swizzlestick wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:55 pm

I know your late night rants have become something akin to folklore on here, but how on earth can you say Pickford hasn’t been brilliant for England and isn’t fully deserving of his number one spot? Pope had a huge chance to make an impression in the Germany game and royally messed up.

because pickford has been laughable at times in his club career.
I would suggest whatever available footage of both in action for their respective clubs should be scrutinised.
pope , as a johnny come lately to the england scene, was always going to be under pressure to prove himself.
Its obvious pickford will appear ok if he keeps getting played, but in reality he is no more than a tiny tosser with very unpredictable tics.
The newcastle supporters are of the same mind as clarets fans who witnessed pope week in, week out, whilst pickford was doing his norman wisdom routines in the everton penalty area.

Wile E Coyote wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:05 am

because pickford has been laughable at times in his club career.
I would suggest whatever available footage of both in action for their respective clubs should be scrutinised.
pope , as a johnny come lately to the england scene, was always going to be under pressure to prove himself.
Its obvious pickford will appear ok if he keeps getting played, but in reality he is no more than a tiny tosser with very unpredictable tics.
The newcastle supporters are of the same mind as clarets fans who witnessed pope week in, week out, whilst pickford was doing his norman wisdom routines in the everton penalty area.

Pickford was the main reason Everton stayed up. He has never let England down; indeed he’s been one of our star players in the major tournaments. You’re betting on the wrong horse with this one.

no I am not. england are always toying with success, but they never get the job done,
pickford is in place, and that is a fact. but the difference in class is glaring. pope will not get his chance, but that just shows a lack of knowledge on the part of southgate.
everton have been horrific, and all the nonsense about form goes out the window with his inclusion. he is a liability, and everton are misfiring duds, and have been for ages. pope was astounding in our mediocre team, and the geordies are similarly seeing what a top notch goalie can do.
wasted opportunity leaving pope out. thats why we havent won a cup as a nation for 55 years. short sighted yes men in charge.

if a poll was carried out among fans of all PL and FL clubs as to who should play for England I reckon 90 clubs would vote for Pickford.
Maybe Charlton fans would make it 3 for Pope.

boatshed bill wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:05 am

if a poll was carried out among fans of all PL and FL clubs as to who should play for England I reckon 90 clubs would vote for Pickford.
Maybe Charlton fans would make it 3 for Pope.

yes, because there are thousands of dimwitted sun readers and talk sport rats out there.

Wile E Coyote wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:13 am

yes, because there are thousands of dimwitted sun readers and talk sport rats out there.

What? And Burnley and Newcastle fans read the Times?

We are four games into a World Cup and yet by far the biggest goalkeeping error for England this year was Pope v Germany in summer. Delusional to think Pickford should be dropped, absolutely delusional.

daveisaclaret wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:30 am

We are four games into a World Cup and yet by far the biggest goalkeeping error for England this year was Pope v Germany in summer. Delusional to think Pickford should be dropped, absolutely delusional.

Exactly! Pickford has done little wrong for England in major tournaments, and if Southgate played Pope in his place and England then went on to lose he'd be copping flak from the press for dropping Pickford.

Unfortunately when Pope has been given his chance he's dropped a couple of clangers against Germany and Poland.

And if Pope can't force his way into the England side now when he's impressing for high-flying Newcastle, then you have to wonder if he ever will establish himself as 1st choice, plus Ramsdale is likely the next cab on the rank given his age and standout displays for Arsenal this season.

Pickford might not be a better goalkeeper than Pope but he's a damn better one for England and that's all that matters.

Pickford was absolutely unbelievable last season towards the end too, non stop blinding saves to keep Everton up.

Quite a few errors too but, yes, he was pretty instrumental in keeping them up.

For all the talk of Pickford and England playing out from the back they only started to play well against Senegal once the goal kicks and clearances went long into the oppositions half.

Wonder if England will risk passing out from the back tomorrow, or will adopt a similar direct approach as the previous game.

Spijed wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:18 am

For all the talk of Pickford and England playing out from the back they only started to play well against Senegal once the goal kicks and clearances went long into the oppositions half.

Wonder if England will risk passing out from the back tomorrow, or will adopt a similar direct approach as the previous game.

Playing out from the back relies on the defenders at least as much as the goalkeeper, and I don't think Stones and Maguire are particularly good at it at international level.
But the other important element with the goalkeeper is his ability to receive and deal with back passes. Pickford is better than Pope at this.

and Pope is horrendous with his feet, an absolute bag of nerves when the ball is played towards him. You don't need stats to see that.

KRBFC wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:31 am

and Pope is horrendous with his feet, an absolute bag of nerves when the ball is played towards him. You don't need stats to see that.

As long as you accept Pope's limitations with his feet he's a great goalkeeper for any side.

Newcastle have done incredibly well so far this season. And fair play to Eddie Howe realising Pope's limitations as a keeper in that respect. They are more pragmatic as a result yet still play entertaining football, despite Pope booting the ball up field anytime he has to clear it. It certainly hasn't made therm any less of a team because they have a keeper who isn't that good with his feet and it shows you can still do well.

They don't bother trying to play out from the back yet have achieved very good results this year, despite many teams around them in the Premier league with keepers who are more inclined to play out from the back and take risks.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:25 pm

I'm just highlighting that people who are only using their eyesight for their opinion aren't getting it right most of the time.

It is quite common on football forums for fans to take aim at current or former players and launch a tirade against them without having all of the stats at hand, mainly because a large number of fans don't like the stats side of the game.

I must admit I am one who doesn’t like the stats side. Too much is made of them I think. I’m old school in the belief only one stat matters: who scored most goals. I have a laugh to myself sometimes when a manager or players says after a draw or defeat ‘we did enough to win’. No you didn’t, if you had you’d have won.
Still each to their own. However people enjoy their football is up to them. I just think that stats are a bit American and if we’re not careful it will be ‘soccer’ before long.

dougcollins wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:48 pm

Selectively presenting facts to prove your version of 'the truth'. Happens pretty much daily in my world.

I take it you’re married then?

Spijed wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:42 am

As long as you accept Pope's limitations with his feet he's a great goalkeeper for any side.

Newcastle have done incredibly well so far this season. And fair play to Eddie Howe realising Pope's limitations as a keeper in that respect. They are more pragmatic as a result yet still play entertaining football, despite Pope booting the ball up field anytime he has to clear it. It certainly hasn't made therm any less of a team because they have a keeper who isn't that good with his feet and it shows you can still do well.

They don't bother trying to play out from the back yet have achieved very good results this year, despite many teams around them in the Premier league with keepers who are more inclined to play out from the back and take risks.

I don't think anyone is saying that Nick Pope is a poor goalkeeper, just not suited to England's current preferred style of play.

houseboy wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:43 am

I must admit I am one who doesn’t like the stats side. Too much is made of them I think. I’m old school in the belief only one stat matters: who scored most goals. I have a laugh to myself sometimes when a manager or players says after a draw or defeat ‘we did enough to win’. No you didn’t, if you had you’d have won.
Still each to their own. However people enjoy their football is up to them. I just think that stats are a bit American and if we’re not careful it will be ‘soccer’ before long.

Soccer is a British term in origin

Spijed wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:42 am

As long as you accept Pope's limitations with his feet he's a great goalkeeper for any side.

Newcastle have done incredibly well so far this season. And fair play to Eddie Howe realising Pope's limitations as a keeper in that respect. They are more pragmatic as a result yet still play entertaining football, despite Pope booting the ball up field anytime he has to clear it. It certainly hasn't made therm any less of a team because they have a keeper who isn't that good with his feet and it shows you can still do well.

They don't bother trying to play out from the back yet have achieved very good results this year, despite many teams around them in the Premier league with keepers who are more inclined to play out from the back and take risks.

As poor as he is with the ball, he's an incredible shot stopper and commands his area like one of the very best.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:25 pm

Soccer is a British term in origin

So I have been led to believe. But how often have you heard it called that here as opposed to the US? It has by default morphed into an Americanism. It belongs in the same bracket as whatever, reach out and that lates term what the actual f*ck (which when you analyse it doesn’t really mean anything).
I’m just an old semantic at heart.