Has Southgate taken us as far as he can?

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:43 pm

He's breathed new life into the national team, that cannot be denied, but is this as far as we can go with him? Cards on the table, I wanted him replaced after the shambolic summer performances. For all the good he has done, reforming the national team culture, getting fans enjoying watching us again, team spirit, taking us as close to actually winning something as I've seen in my life, I reckon there's actually a fair bit more in these players than what they've shown. We beat Iran, Wales, and Senegal, and drew to USA, not exactly world champion calibre teams, and at the first proper test we went out played 45 minutes like we were $hit scared of the occasion. Then there's the summer horror shows. He's been great for us, but I'd say more on from him.

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:45 pm

Not sure. We’ve come a long, long way under his tenure. Compare that performance against the World Champions to performances against Croatia in the last World Cup. In fact we’ve never been as dominant on the pitch as in this tournament. We’ve just happened to face the hardest team out of anyone possible in the Quarters, and even then shouldn’t have lost in 90. Im open to him staying, given the significant improvement I’ve seen.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:45 pm

Look when you play 11 and the officials + the var refs.

You struggle to win

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:46 pm

Who replaces him?

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:46 pm

Yes, we definitely need someone less woke. What's Big Ron up to?

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:46 pm

Not at all. It's still a young team who will get better with experience.

jedi_master · Post by **jedi_master** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:47 pm

We were the better team tonight, Southgate cannot legislate for a penalty miss. He deserves the Euros in Germany.

That will also be the final tournament you’ll get out of Harry Kane as he will be 32.

CoolClaret · Post by **CoolClaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:47 pm

Think he set the team up spot on tbh.

I’m happy with Southgate taking the team forward if he wishes to.

If we appointed anyone else, Brendan Rodgers would be my first choice

Barlickclaret · Post by **Barlickclaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:47 pm

Signed till after next euroes, leave him to it.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:48 pm

ElectroClaret wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:46 pm
Who replaces him?

I'm not even being facetious when I say Mourinho.

Poch would take the job in a heartbeat.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:51 pm

Possibly he has but I would need to have a considered think about it and not react in a knee jerk fashion to tonight's defeat.

Not remotely comparable but Phil Neville took the England women's team deep into tournaments and couldn't get over the line, then the FA make a bold call to pot him and appoint a serial winner in Sarina Wiegman who then led the Lionesses to European glory in under a year.

Southgate isn't perfect and his decisions tonight with the subs were rather strange,. however no manager can legislate for Kane missing his penalty in the manner he did.

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:53 pm

Big Sam still without a job

4:20 · Post by **4:20** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:55 pm

Deserves a crack at the euros again. Not really disappointed by tonight, we weren't embarrassed by any means. Had me pacing up and down the front room and that's all I really want when watching England in a tournament, a bit of buzz.

Terrier · Post by **Terrier** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:55 pm

Yes, best squad of players in years, needed to be let off the lead to more, show too much respect to the opposition!

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:56 pm

Casper wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:53 pm
Big Sam still without a job

I'm pretty sure there's a good reason for that...

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:58 pm

Whoever replaces him will have a lot to love up to seeing as Southgate has done a WC SF, QF and Euros final, better record than any manager since 66.

England are now in a better position because of his work with the squad, so they could attract a higher quality of manager.

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:59 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:58 pm
Whoever replaces him will have a lot to love up to seeing as Southgate has done a WC SF, QF and Euros final, better record than any manager since 66.

England are now in a better position because of his work with the squad, so they could attract a higher quality of manager.

Spot on. I saw Tuchel and Pochettino are candidates as well as his current assistant, Steve Holland.

Shaggy · Post by **Shaggy** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:01 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:58 pm
Whoever replaces him will have a lot to love up to seeing as Southgate has done a WC SF, QF and Euros final, better record than any manager since 66.

England are now in a better position because of his work with the squad, so they could attract a higher quality of manager.

His record is padded. How many good teams has he actually beaten? It’s all well being a flat track bully.

Btw Capello has a better win % ratio than failgate. Just saying

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:02 pm

I wonder whether or not a lot of our relative success in recent times is quietly due to the FA's EPPP youth football reforms following the South Africa world cup, and if Southgate's impact is perhaps overstated? We're certainly more technically proficient than twelve years ago, and the younger players in this side would have benefitted directly from those reforms in our development strategy.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:02 pm

Shaggy wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:01 pm
His record is padded. How many good teams has he actually beaten? It’s all well being a flat track bully.

Btw Capello has a better win % ratio than failgate. Just saying

You're busy gloating that England have been knocked out so I'm not sure why you think I'd take your opinion seriously on anything.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:03 pm

Spiral wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:02 pm
I wonder whether or not a lot of our relative success in recent times is quietly due to the FA's EPPP youth football reforms following the South Africa world cup, and if Southgate's impact is perhaps overstated? We're certainly more technically proficient than twelve years ago, and the younger players in this side would have benefitted directly from those reforms in our development strategy.

Germany did the same thing 20yrs ago, but they still needed the right manager in place to make it all work.
Southgate had been in the England set up in various roles for a few years prior to getting the top job, so maybe his impact isn't overstated.

Shaggy · Post by **Shaggy** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:06 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:02 pm
You're busy gloating that England have been knocked out so I'm not sure why you think I'd take your opinion seriously on anything.

Not interested if you do. My opinion as you call it is correct. England are out get it right up ye’s

Party’s in Scotland tonight.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:07 pm

We haven't got over the line, GIADJ, whereas Germany did. This side has basically everything you could want bar the ruthless streak needed to grab trophies, and that ruthlessness comes from the manager.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:08 pm

Spiral wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:07 pm
We haven't got over the line, GIADJ, whereas Germany did. This side has basically everything you could want bar the ruthless streak needed to grab trophies, and that ruthlessness comes from the manager.

We've been showing clear signs of progression though, we aren't that far off and I'd say that's mainly due to the management of Southgate.

He's been a good tournament manager for us, better than the majority of his predecessors who're bizarrely lauded for doing worse than he has.
He's probably peaked, but he's taken his closer and the next man could well do so because of that.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:08 pm

Shaggy wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:06 pm

Party’s in Scotland tonight.

Well why don't you p1ss off up there and join em?

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:09 pm

Shaggy wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:06 pm
Not interested if you do. My opinion as you call it is correct. England are out get it right up ye’s

Party’s in Scotland tonight.

Ah that explains the moronic behaviour.

I was right to dismiss you, I'll carry on doing so then.

Good night

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:10 pm

Like I said in the first post, he's been brilliant for the country, I'll never deny that. I just want a ruthless b@stard to get the job done.

Shaggy · Post by **Shaggy** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:12 pm

Loving all these bitter moronic Englanders who thought it was coming home. Woop woop

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:13 pm

Don't be abusive like that, Shaggy. Makes this forum shite to read.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:15 pm

A paste of what I put on the other thread as its on topic. Whether the answer is ‘yes’ depends on if he overcomes the below.

We can’t really criticise manager or players tonight but there is something missing, I sense it is that ability to seize a game when in command (Croatia in 2018) or to desperately throw the dice (Van Gaal last night, nearly worked).

We don’t make changes to do either. We were dominant in the 2nd half, maybe (who knows) an attacking change may have tipped the balance at 1-1 instead of giving them a chance to gain another foothold? The obvious one was Rashford, Grealish or Sterling going left with Henderson subbed and Foden going central. Personally, at that point I thought France were ready to go,

The other one was never giving Kane a partner, even at 2-1 on 85 minutes.

Just a little too passive, because these are the highest levels of all, with the finest margins.

COBBLE · Post by **COBBLE** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:18 pm

Not been sure but I now feel we are just a few players short which no manager can change. We need centre halfs of world class ability. Is that luck or something that can be managed with raw material like THB?

warksclaret · Post by **warksclaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:25 pm

We were beaten tonight by 3 things. The first French goal went through Bellinghams legs and Pickford could not pick the flight early enough. THe second header and cross, no team can defend against, and the third factor was a below standard ref. Southgate cannot be blamed for any of these. We kept Mbappe quiet and played as well as France. Unless you get Guardiola I doubt whether you can get someone better at present. A foreign manager with no experience of playing in the PL is a non starter for me

mkmel · Post by **mkmel** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:27 pm

Shaggy wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:12 pm
Loving all these bitter moronic Englanders who thought it was coming home. Woop woop

Are you Scottish by any chance shaggy?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:29 pm

We were the better team, comfortably the better team in fact

But we missed a penalty in normal time, and you can't do that and expect to win against the very best

No one to blame here, and Southgate has a record in three competitions that we'd knight someone for normally

Maybe he needs a break, but I don't think there was anymore that we could do

Royboyclaret · Post by **Royboyclaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:37 pm

Clearly a smashing bloke, far too nice to be successful at the very highest level.

AfloatinClaret · Post by **AfloatinClaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:40 pm

warksclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:25 pm
We were beaten tonight by 3 things. The first French goal went through Bellinghams legs and Pickford could not pick the flight early enough. THe second header and cross, no team can defend against, and the third factor was a below standard ref.

An off the wall opinion perhaps, but I do think that missing a penalty could possibly have had a slight bearing on the result too

Aclaret · Post by **Aclaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:42 pm

fanzone · Post by **fanzone** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:43 pm

If the answer is Yes then the next manager has alot to live upto

Aclaret · Post by **Aclaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:47 pm

fanzone wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:43 pm
If the answer is Yes then the next manager has alot to live upto

Haven't they all.....still living in Sir Alfs and Badiel & Skinners shadow !

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:47 pm

Just a comment on the age of the team, which comes up a lot.

Of the starting XI tonight, Pickford, Maguire, Stones, Shaw, Walker, Henderson and Kane will all be over thirty or very nearly approaching thirty by the time the Euros start in 18 months time. Then we have Bellingham, Foden and Saka who are 'properly' young, and also Rice, who will be twenty-five. So we've got four young players. Rashford will be twenty-six, Grealish will be twenty-eight. Perhaps Reece James or Alexander-Arnold come in for Walker, perhaps Kalvin Phillips (he's twenty-seven just now) comes in for Henderson, and perhaps a few other young players burst on the scene the season after this one, but I think we're at the point where this team can't be called young anymore. We have a few young stars, as all teams do, but the majority of these players have been around the block enough times that squad age cannot be an excuse for losing.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:51 pm

Spiral wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:47 pm
Just a comment on the age of the team, which comes up a lot.

Of the starting XI tonight, Pickford, Maguire, Stones, Shaw, Walker, Henderson and Kane will all be over thirty or very nearly approaching thirty by the time the Euros start in 18 months time. Then we have Bellingham, Foden and Saka who are 'properly' young, and also Rice, who will be twenty-five. So we've got four young players. Rashford will be twenty-six, Grealish will be twenty-eight. Perhaps Reece James or Alexander-Arnold come in for Walker, perhaps Kalvin Phillips (he's twenty-seven just now) comes in for Henderson, and perhaps a few other young players burst on the scene the season after this one, but I think we're at the point where this team can't be called young anymore. We have a few young stars, as all teams do, but the majority of these players have been around the block enough times that squad age cannot be an excuse for losing.

The one position where there is no natural successor is a good replacement for Kane. No other striker waiting in the wings comes close to his ability. The England will be far weaker as a result.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:54 pm

Spijed wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:51 pm
The one position where there is no natural successor is a good replacement for Kane. No other striker waiting in the wings comes close to his ability. The England will be far weaker as a result.

Aye. Sadly for him, Kane will probably go down as the greatest ever player in football to win f'k all. He should just go on a free to City or PSG just to know what lifting a trophy feels like.

MT03ALG · Post by **MT03ALG** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:17 am

With Southgate not being a winner, he has probably taken us as far as he can, so I would suggest that yes is the answer to the question posed, assuming that England would like to win a competition.

Clive 1960 · Post by **Clive 1960** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 2:03 am

Before the world cup I said he would need to go after but like others have said who is going to replace him , the only guy I think could do it one day is Eddie Howe , only my opinion and he's English.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 2:54 am

Potentially yes, but it's a lot better than any English manager in the last 50 years. I think the team lacks quality in key areas to lift major tournaments, sure Southgate can walk away but we wont be winning trophies with anyone else at the helm. People who pretend we're this cereal winning team and underperforming under Southgate are delusional, we have over achieved under Southgate, people must really not remember how bad it was before him.

Bullabill · Post by **Bullabill** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 3:46 am

KRBFC wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 11, 2022 2:54 am

People who pretend we're this cereal winning team and underperforming under Southgate are delusional, ......

What?, couldn't win a box of Cornflakes?

Bullabill · Post by **Bullabill** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 3:47 am

KRBFC wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 11, 2022 2:54 am

People who pretend we're this cereal winning team and underperforming under Southgate are delusional, ......

What?, couldn't win a box of Cornflakes?

timshorts · Post by **timshorts** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:12 am

Spiral wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:47 pm
Just a comment on the age of the team, which comes up a lot.

Perhaps Reece James or Alexander-Arnold come in for Walker,

Mbappe up against Alexander - Arnold's defending sounds entertaining.

I'd add Ben White onto your young list. He seems to have been forgotten about as he had to go home, but can more than adequately take up one cb slot. There is always a player or two that emerges between tournaments as well.

bumba · Post by **bumba** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:14 am

timshorts wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:12 am
Mbappe up against Alexander - Arnold's defending sounds entertaining.

I'd add Ben White onto your young list. He seems to have been forgotten about as he had to go home, but can more than adequately take up one cb slot. There is always a player or two that emerges between tournaments as well.

Ben White might never play for England again if the story about his arguement with Steve Holland are true and that he couldn't fit in we the current squad.
A number of players need a new staff setup in place so they get a fair chance.
I could pick the starting 11 for the euros in 2 years right now if Southgate is in charge

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:21 am

If he wants to stay on I'd let him do the Euros, where we should have a real chance of winning it.
Who are the alternatives? Eddie Howe and Potter have got big club jobs, and I don't really agree with having a foreigner in, international football should be about what you can produce as a nation.