Sebastian Coe

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Spiral
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:37 pm

dsr wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:03 pm
It absolutely alters the status quo. In the old rules, if an evil man walked into a ladies' changing room and took his clothes off, he could be stopped before he got aggressive towards the women and children present. Now, he can't. They have to wait until he performs an aggressive act before they stop him (and even then, they have to be careful because - as you say - they could be sued at the drop of a hat).
This debate appears to be futile, so I'll give it just one more go then I'm done.

Can you show me where in the Scottish GRR legislation it changes the status quo in the way you mention? I suspect you're wrong and misinformed about the GRR bill, but I'm open to the possibility that it is me who is wrong, and stand to be corrected. As far as I'm aware, the GRR bill streamlines the process of obtaining a gender recognition certificate — a legal document — by removing the need for a medical diagnosis, reducing the age at which a person can obtain a GR certificate from 18 to 16, and reducing the time from the point of transition to when the certificate is given from two years to six months. It does not affect existing self-ID policies in public spaces, nor does it alter business regulation, nor does it alter existing equalities law. It's all about getting a certificate, and all these hypothetical scenarios built from this are nothing but misunderstood abstractions steeped in lots of rhetoric but not based on the facts of the bill. I don't know how many times I need to say this, the scenario you describe can already happen, and the policies, procedures and laws already in place that aim to prevent the scenario you painted from happen, are not changed by GR reform. Please correct me if my understanding of the bill is wrong. For the sake of being informed, I want to be shown in the legislation where legally the status quo can be changed beyond the changes to the three areas I've mentioned.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:14 pm

android wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:45 pm
Many women (and men) are neither "trans" nor "cis" nor "cisgender" because they do not believe in gender identity ideology and do not have a gender identity. Notably, many of the lesbians that I have referred to have spent most of their lives battling against gender stereotypes and find this ideology regressive.
I've just clipped this down to the relevant part I wish to respond to. Are you aware these sentences are chocked full of contradiction? It would be a contradiction for a person who conceives of themselves as "woman" to the point they identify as a "woman" to disregard the very concept of gender identity. They're adopting a gender identity by calling themselves "woman". In logical terms, this is referred to as necessity. You logically can't have one without the other. I think you're absolutely right about battling stereotypes and such, but 'cisgender' — cis deriving from the latin 'on the side of', with cisgender meaning 'gender on the side of biological sex', where a person's conception of their being a "woman" is aligned with their biological sex from which said gender is derived — it is not a description of gender that can be disregarded while still maintaining one's identity of "woman". If someone wishes do away with the terms that signify gender then so be it (not me, btw), but you can't do away with genders while also maintaining you're a woman, because to maintain you're a woman is to adopt a gender identity. Not necessarily gender roles, which is a whole other topic, but I'm talking about the words used as signifiers.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Sproggy » Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:20 pm

Sturgeon is a very good politician but watch this car crash as ideology meets reality.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1620051699900755970

Women believe that the GRR bill will make them less safe in female only spaces/hospital wards/prisons/changing rooms. Are you saying that they are wrong?

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Sproggy » Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:25 pm

Spiral wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:14 pm
I've just clipped this down to the relevant part I wish to respond to. Are you aware these sentences are chocked full of contradiction? It would be a contradiction for a person who conceives of themselves as "woman" to the point they identify as a "woman" to disregard the very concept of gender identity. They're adopting a gender identity by calling themselves "woman". In logical terms, this is referred to as necessity. You logically can't have one without the other. I think you're absolutely right about battling stereotypes and such, but 'cisgender' — cis deriving from the latin 'on the side of', with cisgender meaning 'gender on the side of biological sex', where a person's conception of their being a "woman" is aligned with their biological sex from which said gender is derived — it is not a description of gender that can be disregarded while still maintaining one's identity of "woman". If someone wishes do away with the terms that signify gender then so be it (not me, btw), but you can't do away with genders while also maintaining you're a woman, because to maintain you're a woman is to adopt a gender identity. Not necessarily gender roles, which is a whole other topic, but I'm talking about the words used as signifiers.
You have every right to believe this tripe but you have no right to insist that everyone else does.

Believe it or not, some people still think that woman = adult human female.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:26 pm

Sproggy wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:20 pm
Sturgeon is a very good politician but watch this car crash as ideology meets reality.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1620051699900755970

Women believe that the GRR bill will make them less safe in female only spaces/hospital wards/prisons/changing rooms. Are you saying that they are wrong?
Are you asking me that? If you are, I'd ask you to read the posts I've already made on this thread. I've articulated my thoughts about as comprehensively as I can and I'd only be repeating myself. But if you're sincerely interested, you'll find my response to that question in the posts I've made. Treat my individual posts like a book and understand them as a whole because my entire argument is fleshed out about as well as a thread on a football forum warrants.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:28 pm

Sproggy wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:25 pm
Believe it or not, some people still think that woman = adult human female.
I basically agree with that definition.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Sproggy » Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:28 pm

Does the GRR bill make women safer?

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Sproggy » Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:29 pm

Spiral wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:28 pm
I basically agree with that definition.
"basically" ha ha.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:31 pm

Yes, basically. A more nuanced view would be that "woman" can be used as a word to describe an adult female human, a shorthand for cisgender woman, and a shorthand for transgender woman in the appropriate contexts. That's how language works.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Jellybean » Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:08 pm

Spiral I'm sorry but a man will never ever know what it is to be a woman, and what so many of us go through from puberty right through to menopause etc, it's horrendous at times it has to be said with raging hormones, so many symptoms linked to this, periods getting in the way of everyday life for decades, the hot sweats and the wide ranging emotions and feelings as the body clock ticks and you come to the end of being able to bear children, ultimately our very primal reason for existence. The raising of children as a mother is like nothing else, my body was made to bear, feed and protect my children, I honestly can't articulate enough the journey that I have been on and it all stems from me being born female!

Then I go on Twitter and see the trans activists, with their Barbie doll hair and pouting lipstick images. I mean is this actually what they think a woman is? Is this the stereotype that we are reduced to that this is the aspiration of these men? So please don't come here and tell me that there are cis this and cis that, you are belittling everything that I am!

Ps sorry for the dramatic post, I'm clearly much more emotive about this subject than I ever realised 🤣
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by I'maclaret » Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:30 pm

Even if current testosterone was the only difference between males and females the levels allowed for trans women competing in women's events is never as low as natal women's levels. If (and that is a really big, totally impossible if) there was a way to over come male biological advantages in Trans women - because reducing testosterone does nothing to alter lung capacity, pelvic angle, blood volume and dozens of other difference between male and female bodies here are a few of the reasons why those that have benefited from growing male shouldn't be allowed to compete against those that haven't.

Boys doing sport are called cool, it's a hetro manly thing to do. Girls doing sport are called names, told they won't get a boyfriend or that they must be lesbians.
Some religions/cultures make it difficult for women to participate in sport those from those background who take part have already battle prejudice.
Allowing men into women's spaces/sports/changing rooms excludes some women from those spaces (fear, religion, culture, shyness etc).
It is safer/ easier for men to train alone and/or at night they are far less likely to be attacked, raped, killed than women exercising alone.
Women don't tend to sexually harass /insult men who are out running.
Men don't have to deal with the menstrual cycle - not just the period aspect but the physical and hormonal changes that happen throughout the month.
Boys/men's teams tend to have better kit/facilities than the girls/women's equivalents (it's fairly common practice for boys teams to hand old kit to the girls team when they get new ones.
Equipment/training methods etc often start with male as default and therefore are adapted for women rather than designed for them.
Women's sport is often regarded as 'lesser' - there is lots of 'oh it doesn't matter at grass roots level it's just a bit of fun' but men's sport wouldn't be dismissed as unimportant even at the very lowest/youngest level.
So no, no-one who has benefited from male puberty and male socialisation should ever be allowed to play women's sport. It can never be a level playing field.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:33 pm

The great thing about the trans debate is it makes everyone, absolutely ****ing everyone, a die hard feminist. At least for a moment. At least for the period during which the debate happens. Then there's usually a reversion to type among certain quarters. Contempt for women evaporates, momentarily, to be replaced for contempt for trans people, and eventually the skies break, and the debate ends, and contempt for women pours down again.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by I'maclaret » Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:43 pm

Oh don't worry love, as a woman (the female type) my feminism is going no where.
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Clovius Boofus » Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:54 pm

Now telling women that they are doing feminism wrong. What ******* arrogance.
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Bosscat » Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:59 pm


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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:06 pm

Clovius Boofus wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:54 pm
Now telling women that they are doing feminism wrong. What ******* arrogance.
Nope, try again. You're responding to what you would have liked me to have posted, to your interpretation of my post, the thing that appeared in your imagination that supplanted what I actually said, not the actual thing I said.

People do this thing in internet discourse where a person will say "A", and the other will respond, "no, you're wrong, B is actually this and that", and the problem with this is nobody is actually reading, either because they are incapable or unwilling. Your reading comprehension is not my problem, it's yours.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Clovius Boofus » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:22 pm

Sorry pal, but you made your 'die hard feminist' rant right after posts by women. At least own what you post on here.
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:29 pm

Clovius Boofus wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:22 pm
Sorry pal, but you made your 'die hard feminist' rant right after posts by women. At least own what you post on here.
Were I responding directly to those posts, I would have quoted directly those who are claiming on here to be women, or referenced those posts explicitly. But I didn't, because my post was not a direct response. My observation, a general one, is that those on here, and elsewhere, who it is fairly safe to assume are men by their words — those who belittle women's sport on this forum, for instance, or make posts with sexist or misogynistic undertones (and sometimes overtones), those who are apologists for alleged rapists, for example, or objectify women — those people are actuated by their innate bigotry to insincerely take up the cause of feminism which they otherwise ridicule whenever the opportunity comes to wield it as a weapon to advance their prejudice against trans people. It's very plain to see once you've got an idea for an individual's worldview expressed on here, or elsewhere.
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:37 pm

In fact, any woman reading this, and women in general, ought to be wary of insincerely felt feminist beliefs held by men whose belief in it is contingent on its application to the expedition of other prejudices, and not its innate value, because those people who take up the cause inauthentically will abandon it whenever it is no longer convenient.
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by 1882Clarets1882 » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:46 pm

When women express their rational and totally justifiable fear of biological men being allowed in what would and should otherwise be safe spaces for them , and then being told they're bigots . Shows the wokeists really have managed to have achieved a worryingly warped state of mind.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:38 pm

Funny Ringo should be the one misrepresenting the point Spiral was making when Ringo himself is the very example of it. Wasn't that long ago Ringo was bending over backwards to make excuses for the MET regarding its sexism and misogyny that permeates the culture and norms within the way it polices putting women in danger and at risk.
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by 1882Clarets1882 » Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:10 am

android wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:00 pm
It does appear that way at times. I hadn't thought of your last point but I have spent a lot of time doing exactly that. I ignore some of the slurs but if you ignore them all a new reader might think they are true.
Ignore them all mate. Eventually new readers become regulars , and regulars will inevitably suss out who the slur slinging trolls are. As I said, it's what they resort to when losing the debate, and as they lose the debate so often and frequently, so come the slurs! So so easy to spot.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Clovius Boofus » Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:01 am

Spiral wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:37 pm
In fact, any woman reading this, and women in general, ought to be wary of insincerely felt feminist beliefs
You no longer realise just how patronising you sound.
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by NottsClaret » Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:08 am

Only just caught up with Sturgeon's car crash yesterday. My god. Totally get the 'no debate' stance now.
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by I'maclaret » Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:49 am

Spiral wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:37 pm
In fact, any woman reading this, and women in general, ought to be wary of insincerely felt feminist beliefs held by men whose belief in it is contingent on its application to the expedition of other prejudices, and not its innate value, because those people who take up the cause inauthentically will abandon it whenever it is no longer convenient.
I'm even more wary of people who think feminism should centre a special group of men. We are not human shields and if some men are uncomfortable being men that is a male problem for men to solve.
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by 1882Clarets1882 » Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:38 am

NottsClaret wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:08 am
Only just caught up with Sturgeon's car crash yesterday. My god. Totally get the 'no debate' stance now.

When gender ideology is confronted with biological fact, there can be only one outcome.
It was always inevitable that it would've come to that cringeworthy embarrassing spectacle.

A joy to behold! Lol

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Lowbankclaret » Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:03 pm

Spiral wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:08 am
You imply there are more than two genders and that therefore I believe there must be safe spaces for every one of those genders; you put those words in my mouth as though they were spoken by me, then use the practical unworkability of this idea to implicitly argue against GR reform, despite me not making this claim about the number of identified genders, and, more to the point, as I've already argued a length, the fact that self-ID practices that already govern single-sex/single-gender spaces would be unaffected by GR reform. There appears to be no possibility of bridging the chasm between views because the assumptions that form the basis of your positions are muddled. For example, your mischaracterisation of my argument that, as you infer, the category 'women' must accept 'men' entering their safe spaces. Trans women are not men, their gender is 'trans women'. GR reform does not allow men to enter women's toilets. So ultimately this becomes a matter of genitals, which is to say, biological sex, not gender. To which I revert back to my main argument: when did you last have your genitals inspected before going to the toilet or a changing room? We already operate a system of self-ID. GR reform does not change this. How does GR reform change the status quo? Please answer me this directly, rather than misrepresenting what I've posted. This is nothing more than a moral panic akin to the removal of section 28 or the legalisation of gay marriage. I'm done arguing with people who don't read posts and mischaracterise what is actually written.
I will just point you to a story I was told, no idea if it’s correct or real.
Swimming baths has a men’s only swimming.
Lady walks up to go swimming and told its men only.
She reply’s I identify as a man today.

They let her in and she goes swimming topless.

No one is allowed to say a thing or complain.

Just as an aside.
My Mum has Parkinson’s and has had her license taken away so I have to drive her everywhere. Getting a disability badge is a nightmare but she is obviously disabled so I park in disabled parking spaces waiting for her badge.

But in this world why do I need a badge. It’s **** ing obvious she is.

In todays world she should be able to identify as disabled and used those advantages

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:50 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:03 pm
I will just point you to a story I was told, no idea if it’s correct or real.
Swimming baths has a men’s only swimming.
Lady walks up to go swimming and told its men only.
She reply’s I identify as a man today.

They let her in and she goes swimming topless.

No one is allowed to say a thing or complain.

Just as an aside.
My Mum has Parkinson’s and has had her license taken away so I have to drive her everywhere. Getting a disability badge is a nightmare but she is obviously disabled so I park in disabled parking spaces waiting for her badge.

But in this world why do I need a badge. It’s **** ing obvious she is.

In todays world she should be able to identify as disabled and used those advantages
You can't identify for a day so this story is of no relevance, yet is is being used to assail GRR. A gender recognition certificate is given after a fairly long and drawn out process, and even with the reforms included in the bill a person will need to have socially transitioned for at least six months before gaining legal recognition of gender. An oath (for all they're worth) must be sworn that this is the gender you will live as, and it is a crime to knowingly make a false application. A man can't just turn up at the swimming baths one day on a whim and claim to be a woman and be granted automatic access to a woman's area, that's not how it works.

This is nothing short of anti-trans propaganda. The fear of predatory men being used to deny trans rights. And when there's no way of arguing logically or according to the facts of a bill, a fiction is invented in the hope that rhetoric and sophistry will prove to have superior force capable of overcoming the arguments in favour of trans uplift. It's a cycle that has played out in emancipatory politics for centuries, and while I don't wish to cede ground to false grand narratives such as the enlightenment project and inevitable human progress, generally speaking the culture of our country and the west in general is, and has been for the best part of two centuries, one of extending rights. You won't feel as though you are (because reactionaries never do), but you're on the wrong side of history. Are you not embarrassed to find yourself appropriating the same techniques reactionaries used against every group of the last century who have campaigned for the right to basic decency?

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Jellybean » Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:53 pm

I would quite like a right to basic decency when I'm in a women's changing room and not having to undress in front of a male stranger with penis

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by NottsClaret » Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:57 pm

Spiral wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:50 pm
An oath (for all they're worth) must be sworn that this is the gender you will live as, and it is a crime to knowingly make a false application.
Genuine question here, what’s the difference between a false application and a real one?

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:57 pm

If the owner of a premises wants to be accommodating to trans people they will have unisex changing rooms. It's unfortunate for trans people that there are so few. But none of this changes the fact that GRR does enable this scenario any more than the possibility that already exists today. This must be about the tenth time I've said it, but it obviously is not getting through.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:58 pm

NottsClaret wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:57 pm
Genuine question here, what’s the difference between a false application and a real one?
I suspect it's the opinion of a judge and nothing else.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Jellybean » Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:58 pm

It's not fear mongering, it's basic human rights of we humans born without a penis. The GRR would speed up the process of a man claiming to be a woman, legitimising his presence in female spaces. No medical diagnosis, no longer than 3 months needed for him to get that certificate.

And by having the certificate to me it is an attempt further artificially remove the boundaries that differentiate the sexes - no matter how much you argue a trans woman will never, ever be a woman especially not the ones with a penis! Why can't they just have a category of trans woman, no one would have any problem and they can have all the basic decency they like but not at the expense of biological women.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Jellybean » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:04 pm

I'm thinking Spiral we will graciously have to agree to disagree on this matter, it will be interesting to see how Sturgeon progresses this although I honestly think she is just politicking and not the least bit interested in trans rights here. I am just glad that men and women are finally pushing back, particularly after the recent cases of men competing against women, this poor girl had me in tears last night.

https://twitter.com/Riley_Gaines_/statu ... v2Trg&s=19

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Lowbankclaret » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:05 pm

Spiral wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:50 pm
You can't identify for a day so this story is of no relevance, yet is is being used to assail GRR. A gender recognition certificate is given after a fairly long and drawn out process, and even with the reforms included in the bill a person will need to have socially transitioned for at least six months before gaining legal recognition of gender. An oath (for all they're worth) must be sworn that this is the gender you will live as, and it is a crime to knowingly make a false application. A man can't just turn up at the swimming baths one day on a whim and claim to be a woman and be granted automatic access to a woman's area, that's not how it works.

This is nothing short of anti-trans propaganda. The fear of predatory men being used to deny trans rights. And when there's no way of arguing logically or according to the facts of a bill, a fiction is invented in the hope that rhetoric and sophistry will prove to have superior force capable of overcoming the arguments in favour of trans uplift. It's a cycle that has played out in emancipatory politics for centuries, and while I don't wish to cede ground to false grand narratives such as the enlightenment project and inevitable human progress, generally speaking the culture of our country and the west in general is, and has been for the best part of two centuries, one of extending rights. You won't feel as though you are (because reactionaries never do), but you're on the wrong side of history. Are you not embarrassed to find yourself appropriating the same techniques reactionaries used against every group of the last century who have campaigned for the right to basic decency?
My mum needs a doctor to certify she is disabled before she can get a badge. When she can hardly walk 20 meters.

No person dares to deny a trans person entry just based on a verbal declaration as they fear being sacked in this woke world..

And the real fact is they would be.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:07 pm

If you're concern is linked the GRR bill then try to educate yourself as you don't seem to understand the facts and seem to have been led into believing a false narrative.

Also if you think that me as a man is no position to tell you as a women what to think on this subject then don't take it from me but take it from the following Women's groups, some who specifically operate on the frontline in protecting women and looking out for their safety

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/n ... vention-o/

Close the Gap
Glasgow Women's Library
Rape Crisis Scotland
Scottish Women's Aid
Scottish Women’s Convention
Scottish Women’s Rights Centre
Young Women’s Movement
Zero Tolerance

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Lowbankclaret » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:07 pm

Spiral wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:58 pm
I suspect it's the opinion of a judge and nothing else.
So how does an attendant at a swimming baths make a decision, they are not a judge.

But they know if they stop a trans person from going swimming they will be sacked, so they let them in.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:11 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:07 pm
So how does an attendant at a swimming baths make a decision, they are not a judge.

But they know if they stop a trans person from going swimming they will be sacked, so they let them in.
It shouldn’t be up to any attendant to decide upon somebody’s gender the attendant’s job primarily should be to watch for people getting into difficulty in the water particularly children & assisting.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:11 pm

Jellybean wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:58 pm
It's not fear mongering, it's basic human rights of we humans born without a penis. The GRR would speed up the process of a man claiming to be a woman, legitimising his presence in female spaces. No medical diagnosis, no longer than 3 months needed for him to get that certificate.

And by having the certificate to me it is an attempt further artificially remove the boundaries that differentiate the sexes - no matter how much you argue a trans woman will never, ever be a woman especially not the ones with a penis! Why can't they just have a category of trans woman, no one would have any problem and they can have all the basic decency they like but not at the expense of biological women.
If you are able to emancipate people from a social disability imposed on them by legislation and social attitudes, if you provide protection, rights, and general support, they move out from the periphery of a society where they have been shunned in the name of social order, and into the wider group. Remove the social stigma and trans people will feel less inclined to hide the 'trans' part of their existence. From this position of visibility and acceptance, there arises a societal drive to be inclusive, which in very practical terms means a consideration for trans people in the provision and planning of public services, and an increased desire among the private sector to be inclusive. The gradual result of this is more unisex changing rooms, more unisex toilets etc. It can even bleed into architectural design, whereby safe spaces are designed with such differences between trans women and cisgender women in mind, meaning the dilemma of a cis woman being in proximity to a trans woman's penis can be addressed more effectively. This cannot happen, though, if trans people are legislated out of existence.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Jellybean » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:19 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:07 pm
If you're concern is linked the GRR bill then try to educate yourself as you don't seem to understand the facts and seem to have been led into believing a false narrative.

Also if you think that me as a man is no position to tell you as a women what to think on this subject then don't take it from me but take it from the following Women's groups, some who specifically operate on the frontline in protecting women and looking out for their safety

https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/n ... vention-o/

Close the Gap
Glasgow Women's Library
Rape Crisis Scotland
Scottish Women's Aid
Scottish Women’s Convention
Scottish Women’s Rights Centre
Young Women’s Movement
Zero Tolerance
Ha how much government funding do these organisations receive?! Like every charity and public sector organisations, global companies, media etc etc they are under this weird spell that you have to be super righteous about all things relating to trans given they are so supposedly marginalised. Well watch this space now as we women find ourselves marginalised, the rhetoric from the political world will shift as they hunt for votes from the 51% electorate.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Jellybean » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:23 pm

And my final more light hearted point on this is regarding the unisex toilets you've suggested as some kind of trans / female safe space utopia. We have them at work and I'm sorry but the state they're left in is horrible, and I don't want to be touching the seat when the males have left them up 🤣 yuck, no thanks, the women's toilets are generally much nicer so why should we again have to sacrifice this!

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Jellybean » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:26 pm

Spiral wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:11 pm
If you are able to emancipate people from a social disability imposed on them by legislation and social attitudes, if you provide protection, rights, and general support, they move out from the periphery of a society where they have been shunned in the name of social order, and into the wider group. Remove the social stigma and trans people will feel less inclined to hide the 'trans' part of their existence. From this position of visibility and acceptance, there arises a societal drive to be inclusive, which in very practical terms means a consideration for trans people in the provision and planning of public services, and an increased desire among the private sector to be inclusive. The gradual result of this is more unisex changing rooms, more unisex toilets etc. It can even bleed into architectural design, whereby safe spaces are designed with such differences between trans women and cisgender women in mind, meaning the dilemma of a cis woman being in proximity to a trans woman's penis can be addressed more effectively. This cannot happen, though, if trans people are legislated out of existence.
Sorry one last question as this post is simply screaming at me. You talk about having a space where trans people can use a toilet with no problems and that unisex ones are the way forward.

Would you agree that we already often have disabled toilets available as unisex, separate cubicles. So by your reasoning of compromise and equality, can the trans women be asked to use these? If not why not? Why does it need to be a female space and not a disabled space?

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Lowbankclaret » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:27 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:11 pm
It shouldn’t be up to any attendant to decide upon somebody’s gender the attendant’s job primarily should be to watch for people getting into difficulty in the water particularly children & assisting.
What about the poor person letting them at the till

What you going to do on £10 per hour.

Refuse permission for someone to enter or be on the front page of the papers stopping a trans person entering.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:31 pm

Jellybean wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:19 pm
Ha how much government funding do these organisations receive?! Like every charity and public sector organisations, global companies, media etc etc they are under this weird spell that you have to be super righteous about all things relating to trans given they are so supposedly marginalised. Well watch this space now as we women find ourselves marginalised, the rhetoric from the political world will shift as they hunt for votes from the 51% electorate.
Here we go then, a women's group who is there to protect and support victims of rape do not have a valid opinion on this subject.

What a great advert for Women's rights you turned out to be

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:32 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:07 pm
So how does an attendant at a swimming baths make a decision, they are not a judge.

But they know if they stop a trans person from going swimming they will be sacked, so they let them in.
Ultimately it falls on management, not the employee, so it's about policy. I'm not a lawyer, but I believe premises have the right to deny people access to facilities if they are, in the event of consequent litigation, to be judged to have been proportional in their handling of the matter if the policies or actions were in service of protecting those who fall under other protected characteristics under equalities law. The point is that you can't ruthlessly discriminate against a person based on certain characteristics, but when those characteristics in practical terms contradict other protected characteristics, one must act proportionately. It can become complicated: what happens when religious belief as a protected characteristic contradicts sex as a protected characteristic? (I don't know if this has ever happened, or even how it might, but it's just an example). This is what I mean when I say the final arbiter of such things (knowingly made false transitions, allegations of breaking equalities law etc) is a judge, but instances of litigation are so few, and indeed, possibly also are the number of incidents where even the possibility of litigation is present, that it's a somewhat trivial concern when you stop imagining scenarios that could arise and consider what actually does happen in the world. And it's from this position, from reality, not from a vivid imagination, that you begin to carefully balance rights.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:32 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:27 pm
What about the poor person letting them at the till

What you going to do on £10 per hour.

Refuse permission for someone to enter or be on the front page of the papers stopping a trans person entering.
This might come across as wrong but I wouldn’t let them in unless special provisions to accommodate them was in place, you are asking for trouble putting people together who don’t want to be together.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:38 pm

Jellybean, apologies if I'm misreading your post, but not for one second have I suggested cis women should use disabled or unisex toilets. My point is that a recalibration of how people use changing rooms and toilets will only take place when the need for a solution arises, and the need for a solution is expedited by allowing trans people to live and breathe, not by pretending they don't exist.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Burnley1989 » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:40 pm

Jellybean wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:23 pm
And my final more light hearted point on this is regarding the unisex toilets you've suggested as some kind of trans / female safe space utopia. We have them at work and I'm sorry but the state they're left in is horrible, and I don't want to be touching the seat when the males have left them up 🤣 yuck, no thanks, the women's toilets are generally much nicer so why should we again have to sacrifice this!
Funnily enough, the female cleaners I’ve spoken to over the years always said the opposite! I guess it depends on the class of female 😂

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Spiral » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:42 pm

By the way, as Nicola Sturgeon has been mentioned to me, I don't particularly like her so I won't spend a single second defending her as a politician. Just because I support trans uplift doesn't mean I support the leader of the SNP.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by NottsClaret » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:43 pm

Spiral wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:38 pm
Jellybean, apologies if I'm misreading your post, bot not for one second have I suggested cis women should use disabled or unisex toilets. My point is that a recalibration of how people use changing rooms and toilets will only take place when the need for a solution arises, and the need for a solution is expedited by allowing trans people to live and breathe, not by pretending they don't exist.
Nobody thinks they don’t exist. Some people just believe that they’re men and performing regressive female stereotypes doesn’t make them women. That’s all, they’re just men. Not special, or brave or magical. Just men, now impinging on women in a story as old as time.

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