Sebastian Coe

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timshorts
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by timshorts » Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:17 pm

android wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:15 pm
In the case of Coe, a backhander or money motive seems very unlikely to me.

I think fear or ambition are behind his change of stance.
Wasn't he a tory MP? On that basis a backhander or something sleazy doesn't seem quite so unlikely. That said, it also supports your ambition theory.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by ClaretinJapan » Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:19 am

boatshed bill wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:46 pm
Is it time for a trans-gender only sporting category?
It would be predictable. It would always be a game of new halves!

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:17 am

Vegas Claret wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:10 pm
there is a really really simple solution as there is no reason why anyone can't compete:

Men compete against men
Women compete against women
Transgender compete against transgender

it's not rocket science
Exactly the best post on this thread by a country mile & bullseye, it’s a simple fair solution with no complications, you are what you are & you will compete with the same people in the same boat.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by android » Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:35 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:13 pm
The amendment is totally irrelevant to the point I have argued that the Gender Recognition Reform Bill has no relevance to the rights Trans women have to serve their sentence in a women's prison and the case of Isla Bryson has not been impacted in anyway by that bill.

The rights of Trans women to serve their sentence in a women's only prison is provisioned under the Equality Act 2010 and as part of that act in some circumstances someone claiming to be a trans women can be denied that right and that is what has happened in the case of Isla Bryson

The only thing I have involved myself in this thread and the only thing i have any intention of involving myself in is to challenge dangerous mis-information that mis-represent the Gender Recognition Reform Bill.

If you don't agree with me that the Gender Recognition Reform does not give trans women any new or additional rights around access to women only spaces beyond the rights they already have under the Equality Actthen feel free to provide your evidence and I'll happily discuss.

If you accept that I am correct about the bill then I hope you'll join me in agreement that false information should be challenged.

As for the other things you want to discuss then I'll leave you to it with others on here because my only concern was to challenge the dangerous mis-information I read with regards the Gender Recognition Reform Bill
We have already agreed that the GRR bill could not have a direct legal impact on the case. Where we differ is that you say that it is dangerous misinformation to link the decision making around the case to the GRR at all and I would say that is naive at best. Sturgeon could hardly go to such lengths to seek to protect the rights of rapists by blocking the amendment to the proposed bill and then send a trans woman to a men's prison! It was against this backdrop that the rapist was initially sent to a women's prison. Then came the backlash and the reverse ferret. You have not said this, so I am not accusing you of this, but there are probably even some people who are naive enough to believe that the policy approach of the Scottish government had nothing to do with the rapist's decision to start transitioning after his case started.

You boldly stated that it was right to send the rapist to a men's prison. It is a shame that you were unwilling to answer the question as to why you think that is the right decision. It would be interesting to know whether it is because you do not believe that Isla Bryson is a woman or what other reason you have to support your opinion. Obviously you have the right to remain silent!

A shame also that having previously agreed with me (you did not put it like that of course!) that there are some tricky issues such as sport to resolve, that you have no opinion to offer on the main subject of this thread. Theory is fine but decisions need to be made.

Nevertheless, even baby steps to progress are welcome and your side of the argument belatedly realising that bad faith men will take advantage of bad rules and starting to talk about the Equality Act, which has the protected characteristic of sex, is good news.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by android » Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:50 am

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:42 am
History should tell you that this isn't the best forum for this discussion.
I knew you were partly right.

But the contributions on sport were much better than I dared hope and, unless I missed it, unlike the last time I raised this subject, I don't think there was anyone on this thread prepared to state that women's and girls sport should not be female only.

Danger lurks though so I should call it a day, as I am probably only seconds away from being labelled a bigot for misgendering a rapist.

Good luck to Amelia Stricker, Beth Dobbin and the other women standing up for their rights.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:50 am

android wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:50 am
I knew you were partly right.

But the contributions on sport were much better than I dared hope and, unless I missed it, unlike the last time I raised this subject, I don't think there was anyone on this thread prepared to state that women's and girls sport should not be female only.

Danger lurks though so I should call it a day, as I am probably only seconds away from being labelled a bigot for misgendering a rapist.

Good luck to Amelia Stricker, Beth Dobbin and the other women standing up for their rights.
There wasn't on the last thread either

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Greenmile » Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:03 am

It’s pretty disingenuous to start a thread talking about trans people in sport (which is a genuinely “difficult”, albeit relatively trivial, subject on which there is a reasonable debate to be had) as a Trojan Horse to force through your bigoted transphobic talking points and misinformation about the GRR in Scotland.
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by CrisyPbacon » Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:09 am

Maybe the solution is for elite athletes,of both sexes , to boycott meetings where transwomen are allowed to compete in women's events. Throughout athletics certain categories exist to ensure fair competition. Obviously male/female but also age categories exist in junior and veteran events eg U11b, u11g,u13b u13g etc.In vets athletics 35/39.40/44 etc.These categories are there for a reason and that is to ensure fair competition. Imagine if a 25 year old man self identified as an under13 girl,would that be allowed.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by SouthLondonexile » Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:20 am

On the subject of Sebastian Coe however, this guy was a figurehead for our Olympics which delivered tickets to the rich. Tessa Jowell prepared the way for the Olympic games in London, and created the legacy for our young people.
Coe is a classic case of self engrandisment.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by android » Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:41 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:50 am
There wasn't on the last thread either
Yes there was. The poster who came up with the classic "closet bigot" insult was adamant that the fuss over women's sports was just tabloid inspired nonsense and, as in his view no-one was going to abuse the system no-one should complain about males who identified as women competing in the women's category. Although I disagree with his politics, it was actually from one of the more sensible posters who I enjoy reading! I left it alone on the basis that he was clearly not well informed on this subject. There was also more hostility on the last thread and very few people willing to speak up for women's rights to fair sport, although that might have been that people just did not read the thread.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by android » Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:44 am

CrisyPbacon wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:09 am
Maybe the solution is for elite athletes,of both sexes , to boycott meetings where transwomen are allowed to compete in women's events. Throughout athletics certain categories exist to ensure fair competition. Obviously male/female but also age categories exist in junior and veteran events eg U11b, u11g,u13b u13g etc.In vets athletics 35/39.40/44 etc.These categories are there for a reason and that is to ensure fair competition. Imagine if a 25 year old man self identified as an under13 girl,would that be allowed.
A boycott may well be required. As you say, it must be from both sexes. It is not right to expect only women to sacrifice their careers just to achieve fair sport.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:09 am

android wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:35 am
We have already agreed that the GRR bill could not have a direct legal impact on the case. Where we differ is that you say that it is dangerous misinformation to link the decision making around the case to the GRR at all and I would say that is naive at best. Sturgeon could hardly go to such lengths to seek to protect the rights of rapists by blocking the amendment to the proposed bill and then send a trans woman to a men's prison! It was against this backdrop that the rapist was initially sent to a women's prison. Then came the backlash and the reverse ferret. You have not said this, so I am not accusing you of this, but there are probably even some people who are naive enough to believe that the policy approach of the Scottish government had nothing to do with the rapist's decision to start transitioning after his case started.

You boldly stated that it was right to send the rapist to a men's prison. It is a shame that you were unwilling to answer the question as to why you think that is the right decision. It would be interesting to know whether it is because you do not believe that Isla Bryson is a woman or what other reason you have to support your opinion. Obviously you have the right to remain silent!

A shame also that having previously agreed with me (you did not put it like that of course!) that there are some tricky issues such as sport to resolve, that you have no opinion to offer on the main subject of this thread. Theory is fine but decisions need to be made.

Nevertheless, even baby steps to progress are welcome and your side of the argument belatedly realising that bad faith men will take advantage of bad rules and starting to talk about the Equality Act, which has the protected characteristic of sex, is good news.
We haven't already agreed that the GRR bill does not impact (directly or indirectly and legally or otherwise) that rights Trans women have to serve their sentence in a women's prison and although you still try and dilute your acceptance with irrelevant language I am glad you have now confirmed you are in agreement with me in this point and their is no naivety about my position but just good hard facts.

This misinformation is very dangerous because the intention of the bill is to simply remover some of the horrendous dehumanising and traumatising steps that a Trans person has to go through to be able to have their official documentation such as birth certificates and driving licences and medical records state them as female rather than male. The media and those most vocal against this bill have predominantly focused on it being a danger to women by removing their rights to their safe spaces and giving Trans people additional and new rights to access these spaces. This is completely untrue because as I have said these rights are provided by the Equality Act and having your birth certificate say you are female does not make any difference as to whether a person can use certain spaces such as female toilets and changing rooms or get sent to womens prisons. All it serves to do is to demonise trans people and give a false narrative that trans people and their supporters are the bad people and are trying to take away womens rights. This puts trans people at risk and does nothing for the serious and nuanced discussions on how trans rights can exist alongside sex based rights and where conflicts between them exist how these can be managed in a caring and inclusive way

With regards your comments about rejecting the amendment then the amendment itself is totally out of place to be discussed as part of that bill and I would guess it was only introduced to stoke up and justify the attacks on Sturgeon as we have seen you do on here. This bill is the most debated bill in Scottish parliamentary history and has been years in the making. The bill is focused on making it easy for trans people to get their official documentation changed to reflect their trans status. It has nothing to do with with giving rights to trans people regarding prisons so it is totally correct to through out a bill that will disrupt years of careful discussions when it has nothing to do with the bill itself. If the GRR bill was provisioning rights and rules around trans women and prisons then this would be a fair amendment but it isnt. Also if this is such an important point why are they just trying to throw it in cheaply as an amendment to a bill it has no relation to. If they want to challenge the rights provisioned in the Equality Act or add on extra provisions then they should raise their own bill and have it debated and look to pass it as law. So to claim that Sturgeon went to great lengths to block the amendment when the amendment had no relevance to the bill and only served to disrupt a bill that had been carefully and sensibly discussed for years is a complete misrepresentation cos as ive mentioned before that amendment should have been tables as its own bill in relation to the Equality Act

With regards Isla Bryson I haven't responded because you are typically framing it in a very black and white manor when the detail is much subtler but I'll give you my thoughts. I am not to concerned on the words people want to use to identify themselves but in general if someone identifys themselves as a Trans women then I am happy to treat them and refer to them as the person they identify as. There are always going to be people who lie and take advantage of good will given to them and there will be some people who falsley identify as a trans person for their own gain, often at the cost of others but we shouldn't smear a whole group of people for the odd bad person. Now I do not know enough about Isla Bryson to make a decision on whether she is a genuine Trans women or whether she has tried using being a trans women to avoid a mens jail. As Ive said I will take everyone at face value at first and treat them how they would like to be treated until I am sure they are not genuine and then I will change my stance. With regards why I am very sure Sturgeon made the correct decision to send her to a mens prison because my view is that any Trans women be them genuine or non genuine who rapes another women pose a clear threat and risk to other women and as provisioned in the Equality Act a government has the right to remove that trans persons right because of the threat. Again whether Isla is genuinely trans or not doesn't make a difference to my view on the decision. Sturgeon was also clear that any trans women who commits rape will be seen as a risk and threat to women prisoners and will be sent to a womens prison. Not only do I think that is the correct decision but I think it also highlight that the protests about the GRR Bill giving rights for trans women who pose a risk and threat to women to serve there sentence in a women's prison is clear mis-information.

Now I've taken a lot of time to answer your points in detail as you've asked me to but Im not going to spend days on end going through the same issues as we know each others positions and we fundamentally disagree. So finally I just want to remind you what my only real contribution was to this thread and the subject that YOU replied to me on as Im happy to debate this specific issue but I'll leave the main discussion topic to everyone else

Clovius Boofus wrote:

"Sturgeon's U-turn goes to show that her gender reform bill is a screeching load of nonsense"

My point is that the GRR Bill has nothing to do with rights for trans people to have access to women only spaces including serving their sentences in prison because the GRR Bill was introduced to give Trans people the right to change their sex status on their official documents with out having to go countless process and intrusive examinations (physical and mental) which is very costly and can take years.

If anyone want to disagree with me that the GRR Bill does give rights to trans people to use women only spaces then Im happy to continue but anything else on this thread doesn't interest me
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by 1882Clarets1882 » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:31 am

.


Welcome to Clown World ! Lol


.
Screenshot_20230127-002034_Chrome.jpg
Screenshot_20230127-002034_Chrome.jpg (391.03 KiB) Viewed 1210 times

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Greenmile » Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:36 pm

No surprise to see Ringo using neo-Nazi dog whistle language.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Clown_World

(“Clown World (emojified as 🤡🌏, also known as Honkler, Heil Honkler or Honk Honkler) is an alt-right, neo-Nazi propaganda meme and dog whistle”)

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by CrisyPbacon » Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:23 pm

I can not rule out the actions of the trans activists as a reason Coe has made this apparent change in attitube.
Sharon Davis and Marra Yamauchi have received terrible abuse for standing up for fair competition in women's s sport. Perhaps Coe does not have the backbone to stand against this nasty,vociferous minority.
Unless this battle is fought and won there will be large scale repercussions across women's sport all the way down to junior levels.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Greenmile » Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:37 pm

CrisyPbacon wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:23 pm
I can not rule out the actions of the trans activists as a reason Coe has made this apparent change in attitube.
Sharon Davis and Marra Yamauchi have received terrible abuse for standing up for fair competition in women's s sport. Perhaps Coe does not have the backbone to stand against this nasty,vociferous minority.
Unless this battle is fought and won there will be large scale repercussions
across women's sport all the way down to junior levels.
Not ideal language to be using about a persecuted minority on Holocaust Memorial Day.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by CrisyPbacon » Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:44 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:37 pm
Not ideal language to be using about a persecuted minority on Holocaust Memorial Day.
Perhaps if people in the past had spoken out more vigorously and fought harder against another nasty vociferous minority Holocaust Day may not now be a reality..
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:48 pm

CrisyPbacon wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:44 pm
Perhaps if people in the past had spoken out more vigorously and fought harder against another nasty vociferous minority Holocaust Day may not now be a reality..
Perhaps rather than fishing for internet likes from the boards residents weirdos, you should actually study your history
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Greenmile » Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:51 pm

CrisyPbacon wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:44 pm
Perhaps if people in the past had spoken out more vigorously and fought harder against another nasty vociferous minority Holocaust Day may not now be a reality..
I’m not entirely sure what you’re getting at here, and apologies in advance if I’ve got the wrong end of the stick, but I’m pretty sure the Nazis were not a minority in Nazi Germany (the clue’s in the name, but I’d be happy to be corrected by any of our resident historians).

Also, comparing trans people to Nazis (if that is indeed what you’re doing) is sickeningly offensive, imo.

(Edited for typos)
Last edited by Greenmile on Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Greenmile » Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:53 pm


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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by CrisyPbacon » Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:58 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:48 pm
Perhaps rather than fishing for internet likes from the boards residents weirdos, you should actually study your history
We are starting to drift from the original post. Your view of history is what exactly? Would you like to see Coe stood on an athletics track waving a copy of the GRRB in the air " trans in our time"

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:04 pm

CrisyPbacon wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:58 pm
We are starting to drift from the original post. Your view of history is what exactly? Would you like to see Coe stood on an athletics track waving a copy of the GRRB in the air " trans in our time"
I prefer the comparison you made to be wiped from the board at the very least

Rest of it is pretty basic - Android is worried because he fears for his daughters career, Notts/Greenmile/me are worried because these thread attract the people on here who have, er, "interesting" ideas about anything that isn't old, male and white

You've already attracted one of the few complete loon bins on here, why encourage them?
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:08 pm

I feel this thread is seriously starting to descend into murky territory if it wasn't before.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by 1882Clarets1882 » Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:10 pm

I see the Usual Suspects have arrived. Triggered for the usual reasons . As per usual .

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:11 pm

See what I mean?
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by 1882Clarets1882 » Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:13 pm

CrisyPbacon wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:58 pm
We are starting to drift from the original post. Your view of history is what exactly? Would you like to see Coe stood on an athletics track waving a copy of the GRRB in the air " trans in our time"
You do realise that you're dealing with someone with puritanical levels of moral superiority don't you !? Don't say you weren't warned ! Lol

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Clovius Boofus » Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:15 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:04 pm
Rest of it is pretty basic - Android is worried because he fears for his daughters career, Notts/Greenmile/me are worried because these thread attract the people on here who have, er, "interesting" ideas about anything that isn't old, male and white
You're tilting at a windmill yet again. Most people have no problem with trans rights as long as they don't come at the expense of those born with two X chromosomes (females).

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Greenmile » Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:19 pm

Clovius Boofus wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:15 pm
You're tilting at a windmill yet again. Most people have no problem with trans rights as long as they don't come at the expense of those born with two X chromosomes (females).
This is true, I suspect, but then there are some people who view trans people as “a nasty vociferous minority” who we need to “fight a battle” against to avoid “large scale repercussions”, and compare them to the Nazis.

Those people should have no place in an enlightened 21st century society.
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:50 pm

I used the term "few complete loon bins" to describe those who might well have an issue, as I fully agree with you that most do not have an issue

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by NottsClaret » Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:15 pm

Clovius Boofus wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:15 pm
Most people have no problem with trans rights as long as they don't come at the expense of those born with two X chromosomes (females).
Unfortunately it's almost always at women's expense. The only question is how much society is willing to inflict on them in order to support the feelings of some males. History suggests quite a lot.

If we're just sticking to the sport issue - although as we've seen this week, there are far bigger ramifications - then already women are losing places, trophies and records to males in their own sport. I happen to agree this is grossly unfair.

I have absolutely no issue with anyone performing whichever stereotype they like. Live and let live. But this isn't a 'well it doesn't harm anyone else' issue. You may have heard about the fairly mediocre 43 year old male who competed at the Tokyo Olympics in the women's weight lifting event. There was lots of talk about that. But few people remember the name of Roviel Detenamo, who sat at home because her place had been taken by that male. She was 18 and came from a tiny Pacific Island, it would have been her first Olympics, maybe her only one, but she never got there.
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:17 pm

1882Clarets1882 wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:13 pm
You do realise that you're dealing with someone with puritanical levels of moral superiority don't you !? Don't say you weren't warned ! Lol
Can't wait for this complete saddo to deny he's Ringo again

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by boyyanno » Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:30 pm

CrisyPbacon wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:44 pm
Perhaps if people in the past had spoken out more vigorously and fought harder against another nasty vociferous minority Holocaust Day may not now be a reality..
You have 0 grasp of History. One of the worst posts I have seen on here and that's saying something.
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by TheFamilyCat » Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:05 pm

boyyanno wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:30 pm
You have 0 grasp of History. One of the worst posts I have seen on here and that's saying something.
You're dealing with someone who can't even spell their own username here. You shouldn't be surprised.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by CrisyPbacon » Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:50 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:19 pm
This is true, I suspect, but then there are some people who view trans people as “a nasty vociferous minority” who we need to “fight a battle” against to avoid “large scale repercussions”, and compare them to the Nazis.

Those people should have no place in an enlightened 21st century society.
Have you lost it completely.
It was you who brought Nazis into this by implication by mentioning the Holocaust .
The nasty vociferous minority are the transactivists not trans in general who in large would like to lead a nonconfrontational lifestyle I suspect.
I suspect you fully realised the second point but chose to misconstrue it to allow you to appear oh so righteous
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Jellybean » Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:40 pm

I am a woman and I'm finally feeling brave enough to start vocalising my support for these female athletes who are starting to fight back against trans women being potentially allowed to compete against them. It's beyond ridiculous that I felt so oppressed by the weight of political correctness to not be able to speak openly about it.

The prospect of my husband being allowed to take medication to reduce his testosterone levels, yet who is a 6ft beast and has clearly benefited physically from male puberty, is frankly absurd. It simply wouldn't be fair and you men on here can argue till you're blue in the face, it will never ever be fair. And it has to be nipped in the bud now before a world record is smashed at the expense of a woman who likely dedicated her life being to breaking it herself 😥
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Clovius Boofus » Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:45 pm

Well said, Jelly.
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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by 1882Clarets1882 » Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:31 pm

Jellybean wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:40 pm
I am a woman and I'm finally feeling brave enough to start vocalising my support for these female athletes who are starting to fight back against trans women being potentially allowed to compete against them. It's beyond ridiculous that I felt so oppressed by the weight of political correctness to not be able to speak openly about it.

The prospect of my husband being allowed to take medication to reduce his testosterone levels, yet who is a 6ft beast and has clearly benefited physically from male puberty, is frankly absurd. It simply wouldn't be fair and you men on here can argue till you're blue in the face, it will never ever be fair. And it has to be nipped in the bud now before a world record is smashed at the expense of a woman who likely dedicated her life being to breaking it herself 😥
.

This madness occurred in a Gaelic Athletic Association football match -

Screenshot_20230127-160545_Chrome.jpg
Screenshot_20230127-160545_Chrome.jpg (328.49 KiB) Viewed 826 times
A Clown World situation that needs an emperors new clothes moment.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by dougcollins » Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:51 pm

SouthLondonexile wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:20 am
On the subject of Sebastian Coe however, this guy was a figurehead for our Olympics which delivered tickets to the rich. Tessa Jowell prepared the way for the Olympic games in London, and created the legacy for our young people.
Coe is a classic case of self engrandisment.
Couldn’t agree more, was at University with him. Self serving, entitled knob.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by android » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:07 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:09 am
I am not to concerned on the words people want to use to identify themselves but in general if someone identifys themselves as a Trans women then I am happy to treat them and refer to them as the person they identify as.
Just highlighting this so that it is clear to both you and the numpty who keeps labelling me a transphobic bigot or some pathetic variation thereof, that your sentence above is one that I agree with you on and I would generally seek to do the same.

But it does not mean that I am going to disengage my brain when it comes to a rapist. I could not disagree with you more about the rapist situation being subtle. It does not matter what Sturgeon says, like most sane people, I am not going to refer to a rapist as a woman. Can you imagine how humiliating and degrading it is to his victims to hear him referred to in court as "she" who raped them with "her penis". The suspension of reality has reached such a state in Scotland that the rapist's lawyer was emboldened to state that "if you accept that evidence, that she is transitioning, that she is aiming to continue on that path to becoming female gender, that goes a long way to acquitting her of these charges". So never mind a women's prison, it should be a get out of jail free card. No words.

This is all grossly unfair to an innocent trans person to have to put up with this rubbish being done in their name. It is why it is better described as male rights and entitlement versus female rights. The problem is males however they identify, as Notts has also tried to point out.

Much of your post comes across as very obviously from a male perspective. Women's groups would very strongly disagree with your characterisation of the GRR debate. They believe they were treated with disdain throughout and their concerns were ignored. Plenty of men like you assured them they had nothing to worry about but they know their stuff and they are very worried. It is tragic that Stonewall and others no debate strategy and meaningless mantras have held sway for so long. Open minded discussion could surely resolve a lot of these issues.

I don't really have time to discuss this particular issue anymore either, unless it is about sport, but I thought your long response merited some acknowledgement.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by android » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:08 pm

NottsClaret wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:15 pm
Unfortunately it's almost always at women's expense. The only question is how much society is willing to inflict on them in order to support the feelings of some males. History suggests quite a lot.

If we're just sticking to the sport issue - although as we've seen this week, there are far bigger ramifications - then already women are losing places, trophies and records to males in their own sport. I happen to agree this is grossly unfair.

I have absolutely no issue with anyone performing whichever stereotype they like. Live and let live. But this isn't a 'well it doesn't harm anyone else' issue. You may have heard about the fairly mediocre 43 year old male who competed at the Tokyo Olympics in the women's weight lifting event. There was lots of talk about that. But few people remember the name of Roviel Detenamo, who sat at home because her place had been taken by that male. She was 18 and came from a tiny Pacific Island, it would have been her first Olympics, maybe her only one, but she never got there.
Quite

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:18 pm

You have to be so careful with what you post even with the best intentions because a certain element are poised to jump upon the slightest thing & completely distort & twist something to what it isn't I found that out earlier. What should be a completely innocent subject is being hijacked by people with sinister agenda's.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:17 am

android wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:07 pm
Just highlighting this so that it is clear to both you and the numpty who keeps labelling me a transphobic bigot or some pathetic variation thereof, that your sentence above is one that I agree with you on and I would generally seek to do the same.

But it does not mean that I am going to disengage my brain when it comes to a rapist. I could not disagree with you more about the rapist situation being subtle. It does not matter what Sturgeon says, like most sane people, I am not going to refer to a rapist as a woman. Can you imagine how humiliating and degrading it is to his victims to hear him referred to in court as "she" who raped them with "her penis". The suspension of reality has reached such a state in Scotland that the rapist's lawyer was emboldened to state that "if you accept that evidence, that she is transitioning, that she is aiming to continue on that path to becoming female gender, that goes a long way to acquitting her of these charges". So never mind a women's prison, it should be a get out of jail free card. No words.

This is all grossly unfair to an innocent trans person to have to put up with this rubbish being done in their name. It is why it is better described as male rights and entitlement versus female rights. The problem is males however they identify, as Notts has also tried to point out.

Much of your post comes across as very obviously from a male perspective. Women's groups would very strongly disagree with your characterisation of the GRR debate. They believe they were treated with disdain throughout and their concerns were ignored. Plenty of men like you assured them they had nothing to worry about but they know their stuff and they are very worried. It is tragic that Stonewall and others no debate strategy and meaningless mantras have held sway for so long. Open minded discussion could surely resolve a lot of these issues.

I don't really have time to discuss this particular issue anymore either, unless it is about sport, but I thought your long response merited some acknowledgement.
The majority of women's groups supported the GRR bill, the only feminist political party (Women's Equality Party) went to their members to vote on their position on this bill and they chose to support it and it was fully backed by a large majority of women MPs so to label my view as a male perspective is not correct as my view is shared and supported by many womens groups.

What does any women have to fear about the process for a trans person to change their sex on their birth certificate? I hear people say they haven't a problem with trans people and want them to live happily but dont accept trans rights impacting womens rights. If this is true then why don't they support this bill as it has no impact on anyone but the individual trans person

You refer to women's groups but back groups like the LGB Alliance who are made up of a majority of straight men and the objections I have seen from both women and men about the bill totally misrepresent it and link it to the subject of women only spaces when as we've agreed this bill has nothing to do with that subject

If you or someone can give me a different perspective of how the GRR bill has any impact on women I'd be glad to hear it because I get the distinct impression that the majority of people opposed to this bill either dont understand it at all or are wilfully misrepresenting it.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Inchy » Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:47 am

Who gives a sh@t about this nonsense debate?

Morons who listen to that shipiro fella or that Peterson nutter

There’s a whole world out there waiting to be discovered

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by android » Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:30 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:17 am
The majority of women's groups supported the GRR bill, the only feminist political party (Women's Equality Party) went to their members to vote on their position on this bill and they chose to support it and it was fully backed by a large majority of women MPs so to label my view as a male perspective is not correct as my view is shared and supported by many womens groups.

What does any women have to fear about the process for a trans person to change their sex on their birth certificate? I hear people say they haven't a problem with trans people and want them to live happily but dont accept trans rights impacting womens rights. If this is true then why don't they support this bill as it has no impact on anyone but the individual trans person

You refer to women's groups but back groups like the LGB Alliance who are made up of a majority of straight men and the objections I have seen from both women and men about the bill totally misrepresent it and link it to the subject of women only spaces when as we've agreed this bill has nothing to do with that subject

If you or someone can give me a different perspective of how the GRR bill has any impact on women I'd be glad to hear it because I get the distinct impression that the majority of people opposed to this bill either dont understand it at all or are wilfully misrepresenting it.
You probably know that the Women's Equality Party rejects the dictionary definition of a woman and campaigns on behalf of males and females based on how they identify, which they are free to do. They are not a good representation of the female rights campaigners that I was referring to. It does highlight that the consultation process sought out groups that could be relied upon to agree with the process.

Your statement about the make up of the LGB Alliance is an outright lie. I have previously referred you to the Myths section on their website. Please read it, but whether you do or not, stop spreading lies. It is a group that campaigns for same sex attracted people and it is extraordinary that they are still under attack in 2023. They support trans rights but their focus and priority is on same sex attracted people.

We have certainly NOT agreed that the bill has nothing to do with the subject of women only spaces. If you are going to make it a relatively trivial process to change legal sex and expand the process to children of 16 and 17 then of course it could have a potentially major impact on women only spaces. How the rules would be applied in terms of whether legal sex or actual sex was relevant in different settings is a minefield. You telling women that they are protected under the UK Equality Act (back in vogue all of a sudden when it suits) might satisfy you but they are women and they have a whole lot of life experience to remind them how things play out in practice.

Apart from that, as someone else said, male entitlement is something to behold.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:43 am

android wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:30 am
You probably know that the Women's Equality Party rejects the dictionary definition of a woman and campaigns on behalf of males and females based on how they identify, which they are free to do. They are not a good representation of the female rights campaigners that I was referring to. It does highlight that the consultation process sought out groups that could be relied upon to agree with the process.

Your statement about the make up of the LGB Alliance is an outright lie. I have previously referred you to the Myths section on their website. Please read it, but whether you do or not, stop spreading lies. It is a group that campaigns for same sex attracted people and it is extraordinary that they are still under attack in 2023. They support trans rights but their focus and priority is on same sex attracted people.

We have certainly NOT agreed that the bill has nothing to do with the subject of women only spaces. If you are going to make it a relatively trivial process to change legal sex and expand the process to children of 16 and 17 then of course it could have a potentially major impact on women only spaces. How the rules would be applied in terms of whether legal sex or actual sex was relevant in different settings is a minefield. You telling women that they are protected under the UK Equality Act (back in vogue all of a sudden when it suits) might satisfy you but they are women and they have a whole lot of life experience to remind them how things play out in practice.

Apart from that, as someone else said, male entitlement is something to behold.
Ah so they are the wrong kind of women's group, I think that says it all about your position that groups that represent women only count when they share your opinion

LGB Alliance are meant to represent Lesbian, Gay and Bi-sexual people yet they themselves admitted in court under oath that Lesbian, Gay and Bi-sexual people make up less than 15% of their membership

You are either wrong or lying about the GRR Bill because it does not have anything to do with women's spaces and its whole purpose is around making it easier for trans people to change their sex on their birth certificate. What is on your birth certificate gives you no rights to access women's only spaces so you are wrong stating that the bill has any relevance to women's only spaces.

Do you actually understand why this bill is so important to trans people and what it actually provisions because at this stage I am unsure if you don't understand the bill or are deliberately mis-representing it?

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:50 am

Just to add I didn't say that women are protected by the Equality Act, I said that Trans women's rights to access women only spaces like changing rooms, bathrooms and women prisons are protected under the Equality Act and that with regards to trans women serving their sentence in women's prison its not a unilateral right and can be withdrawn as we have seen this week.

If you want to challenge to take away these trans rights then go right ahead but don't conflate it with the GRR bill as it is unrelated

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by 1882Clarets1882 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:59 am

Screenshot_20230128-095732_Chrome.jpg
Screenshot_20230128-095732_Chrome.jpg (427.74 KiB) Viewed 658 times
.

As per usual , the silent vast majority of right minded people in Scotland know the difference between biological facts and dangerous, divisive culture war driven BS


.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by android » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:36 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:43 am

LGB Alliance are meant to represent Lesbian, Gay and Bi-sexual people yet they themselves admitted in court under oath that Lesbian, Gay and Bi-sexual people make up less than 15% of their membership
As I have informed you several times now, this is explained under Myths on their website.

LGB Alliance was founded by two lesbians. LGB Alliance management and trustees are all either lesbian, gay or bisexual. Their subscribers are 34% lesbian, 33% gay men, 12% bisexual, 20% heterosexual and 1% prefer not to say.

Your determination to keep spreading misinformation about them is telling.

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:25 pm

android wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:36 pm
As I have informed you several times now, this is explained under Myths on their website.

LGB Alliance was founded by two lesbians. LGB Alliance management and trustees are all either lesbian, gay or bisexual. Their subscribers are 34% lesbian, 33% gay men, 12% bisexual, 20% heterosexual and 1% prefer not to say.

Your determination to keep spreading misinformation about them is telling.
I'll actually back down on this point as the 7% can be taken as a misleading stat but to be honest Im not interested in them as part of this discussion as they are just a minority group who are closely aligned to Christian Conservative right and in my opinion are a hate group.

Again my main point is to highlight the mis-representation of the GRR bill and on this subject it is you that seems to have a determination to keep spreading misinformation which is also very telling

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Re: Sebastian Coe

Post by Clovius Boofus » Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:59 pm

Meanwhile, the excellent points raised by Jellybean (a woman) are totally ignored by the DA troll.

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