Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
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Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Not much said about his playing career at Burnley, focused his playing career at Nottm Forest with Clough (some great stories).
For his management career, when at Sheff Wed, he was struggling with money from the chairman so did a deal with Roy Keane at Sunderland for a player where Roy/Sunderland agreed to pay some of the player wages but said to Laws I expect a favour back in future.
Fast forward to Burnley, Keane, now at Ipswich, called Laws and said I want your left back, Laws replied stating Fox was injured and the only fit senior left back was Stephen Jordan so I can't do it, Keane not caring said I want Jordan I did you a favour I expect one back, Laws refused, Keane put phone down and the next game they played against each other Laws brought it up and Keane said "Favour for a favour, absolute disgrace" and never spoke to him again.
Brendan Flood "ran" Burnley, tried appointing Laws before Coyle and offered Sheff Wed £400,000 for him.
Coyle left for Bolton, Brendan rang Laws and asked for a chat, due to us being Premier League and having to overachieve with our budget, Laws apparently had the best pound for point ratio in Championship when at Sheff Wed and this is what attracted us to Laws.
A very tough job at Burnley, played Sunderland away and Bruce asked Laws his budget, Laws said £14,000,000, and Bruce laughed saying "you have no chance, I have £39,000,000 at Sunderland and we're bottom 3, you have no chance with Burnley".
Players were extremely hurt that Coyle had left and had the confidence/belief sucked out of them after Coyle left.
The board wouldn't increase the budget because "We have beaten Man Utd at home so we have a team to survive, you don't need anymore money". (That quote was from Brendan Flood).
Had a massive mental fight with the players who wanted to play open similar to Coyle but Laws wanted to tighten the team up and be more defensive and players wouldn't do it and so it was somewhere inbetween and a mismatch.
Fans loved the attacking football but didn't like the style under Laws and that is why we turned on him.
Chairman and board didn't want to rip the team apart for Premier League and wanted to stay loyal to the players who got us promoted, Laws didn't win over the players apart from 3 or 4.
Kevin McDonald had a nightmare first half v Man City, brought him off at half time, Laws presumes he has gone into the stands and gets told he has gone the pub to see his dad. Outside looking in the damage this did was show that the players didn't respect Laws.
Defining game was Wigan away, 0-0 we had a chance hit the side netting, they go up other end and score and we lose 1-0. If we had beaten Wigan we'd have survived.
Back in Championship team has been rebuilt and fans back on board with Laws, we went to Barnsley and won, Laws walking to tunnel towards the Burnley fans and all fans booing and shouting obscenities. Text from chairman, "Great result, we're all behind you". Play Scunthorpe and lose and he is sacked, Laws reply was "Chairman you do realise we haven't lost two games in a row this season?" Chairman, "No, but we have made our decision".
Just felt that the manager who followed Coyle was not going to have a good time and would struggle.
For his management career, when at Sheff Wed, he was struggling with money from the chairman so did a deal with Roy Keane at Sunderland for a player where Roy/Sunderland agreed to pay some of the player wages but said to Laws I expect a favour back in future.
Fast forward to Burnley, Keane, now at Ipswich, called Laws and said I want your left back, Laws replied stating Fox was injured and the only fit senior left back was Stephen Jordan so I can't do it, Keane not caring said I want Jordan I did you a favour I expect one back, Laws refused, Keane put phone down and the next game they played against each other Laws brought it up and Keane said "Favour for a favour, absolute disgrace" and never spoke to him again.
Brendan Flood "ran" Burnley, tried appointing Laws before Coyle and offered Sheff Wed £400,000 for him.
Coyle left for Bolton, Brendan rang Laws and asked for a chat, due to us being Premier League and having to overachieve with our budget, Laws apparently had the best pound for point ratio in Championship when at Sheff Wed and this is what attracted us to Laws.
A very tough job at Burnley, played Sunderland away and Bruce asked Laws his budget, Laws said £14,000,000, and Bruce laughed saying "you have no chance, I have £39,000,000 at Sunderland and we're bottom 3, you have no chance with Burnley".
Players were extremely hurt that Coyle had left and had the confidence/belief sucked out of them after Coyle left.
The board wouldn't increase the budget because "We have beaten Man Utd at home so we have a team to survive, you don't need anymore money". (That quote was from Brendan Flood).
Had a massive mental fight with the players who wanted to play open similar to Coyle but Laws wanted to tighten the team up and be more defensive and players wouldn't do it and so it was somewhere inbetween and a mismatch.
Fans loved the attacking football but didn't like the style under Laws and that is why we turned on him.
Chairman and board didn't want to rip the team apart for Premier League and wanted to stay loyal to the players who got us promoted, Laws didn't win over the players apart from 3 or 4.
Kevin McDonald had a nightmare first half v Man City, brought him off at half time, Laws presumes he has gone into the stands and gets told he has gone the pub to see his dad. Outside looking in the damage this did was show that the players didn't respect Laws.
Defining game was Wigan away, 0-0 we had a chance hit the side netting, they go up other end and score and we lose 1-0. If we had beaten Wigan we'd have survived.
Back in Championship team has been rebuilt and fans back on board with Laws, we went to Barnsley and won, Laws walking to tunnel towards the Burnley fans and all fans booing and shouting obscenities. Text from chairman, "Great result, we're all behind you". Play Scunthorpe and lose and he is sacked, Laws reply was "Chairman you do realise we haven't lost two games in a row this season?" Chairman, "No, but we have made our decision".
Just felt that the manager who followed Coyle was not going to have a good time and would struggle.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
"OMG yet ANOTHER Brian Laws thread!"
"When are you sad desperate Brian Laws lot going to get over him??"
"You'd think this was the Brian Laws forum or something"
*****
On a serious note, thanks for the post claretburns. Always interesting to hear about somebody with a strong BFC link.
Laws took on a truly poisoned chalice. I didn't like him as a manager or enjoy his tenure but it's difficult not to feel sorry for him. He stepped up when nobody else would and did an honest job. He's an honourable man and a true Claret.
"When are you sad desperate Brian Laws lot going to get over him??"
"You'd think this was the Brian Laws forum or something"
*****
On a serious note, thanks for the post claretburns. Always interesting to hear about somebody with a strong BFC link.
Laws took on a truly poisoned chalice. I didn't like him as a manager or enjoy his tenure but it's difficult not to feel sorry for him. He stepped up when nobody else would and did an honest job. He's an honourable man and a true Claret.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Interesting to hear his perspective on this.claretburns wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:27 am
Kevin McDonald had a nightmare first half v Man City, brought him off at half time, Laws presumes he has gone into the stands and gets told he has gone the pub to see his dad. Outside looking in the damage this did was show that the players didn't respect Laws.
I was told the day before the game a few players were throwing the game to try to get him sacked. Watching the first half, it appeared obvious Kev was one of them. If that was what was happening.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
We all know the players had a sulk after Coyle left, eventually it was Howe who had the clear out needed.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Was this when we attempted to get Paul Lambert from Norwich?
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
And we’ve continued to throw almost every game against City since!!Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:47 amInteresting to hear his perspective on this.
I was told the day before the game a few players were throwing the game to try to get him sacked. Watching the first half, it appeared obvious Kev was one of them. If that was what was happening.
Now all those 5-0’s make sense!
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
He wasn't good enough, thank goodness it ended when it did.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Yes the reason we lost to Man City was because a 21 year old decided he wanted to throw the game!!!Lowbankclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:47 amInteresting to hear his perspective on this.
I was told the day before the game a few players were throwing the game to try to get him sacked. Watching the first half, it appeared obvious Kev was one of them. If that was what was happening.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
I think the Lambert approach was when we sacked Laws. Didn't Lambert say he wanted to speak to us but used us as leverage for a new contract at Norwich? So we appointed Howe instead.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
You didn’t read my post correctly, several players!Winstonswhite wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:24 amYes the reason we lost to Man City was because a 21 year old decided he wanted to throw the game!!!
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Pretty sure it was Lambert we wanted after Coyle.claretburns wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:28 amI think the Lambert approach was when we sacked Laws. Didn't Lambert say he wanted to speak to us but used us as leverage for a new contract at Norwich? So we appointed Howe instead.
He was supposed to be very keen then signed an improved deal with Norwich.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Curbishley was apparently interested, but he cancelled the interview while the club representatives were on the journey to meet him.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
I always felt sorry for him.
The run under Coyle was amazing and a massive over-achievement. We were always destined to struggle. People might not like this but Coyle knew we had no chance, too, and the opportunist jumped to save his career.
I don't think Laws did a great job but I also think he was destined to failure with a bunch of players who really weren't up to it. Just look at their glittering careers afterwards. His signings weren't great but there you go.
A decent man who was probably a decent manager but not here and I doubt many managers could have kept us up that year.
The run under Coyle was amazing and a massive over-achievement. We were always destined to struggle. People might not like this but Coyle knew we had no chance, too, and the opportunist jumped to save his career.
I don't think Laws did a great job but I also think he was destined to failure with a bunch of players who really weren't up to it. Just look at their glittering careers afterwards. His signings weren't great but there you go.
A decent man who was probably a decent manager but not here and I doubt many managers could have kept us up that year.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
JimmyRobbo wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:54 amI always felt sorry for him.
___________
I didn't, he hit the jackpot with getting the job, downhill unfortunately after that.
Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
I don’t entirely agree with that - had we not had the upheaval of Coyles departure, I think we had a reasonable chance of survival. By no means guaranteed but it certainly want beyond the realms of possibility.JimmyRobbo wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:54 amI always felt sorry for him.
The run under Coyle was amazing and a massive over-achievement. We were always destined to struggle. People might not like this but Coyle knew we had no chance, too, and the opportunist jumped to save his career.
I don't think Laws did a great job but I also think he was destined to failure with a bunch of players who really weren't up to it. Just look at their glittering careers afterwards. His signings weren't great but there you go.
A decent man who was probably a decent manager but not here and I doubt many managers could have kept us up that year.
The players weren’t PL quality, on the whole, though as we’ve seen ourselves in recent history, team spirit goes a hell of a long way.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Wasn't it Sean O'Driscoll the main alternate candidateclaptrappers_union wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:37 amCurbishley was apparently interested, but he cancelled the interview while the club representatives were on the journey to meet him.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
I'm not sure, Paul Jewell summed it up when he was asked on Gillette Soccer Saturday at the time. He ruled himself out as it wasn't an attractive vacancy with Premier League aspirations.
If he wasn't interested then we were in trouble.
If he wasn't interested then we were in trouble.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Maybe but we hadn't won for 9 games (2 months) under Coyle and not many of the squad were truly prem quality. Fletcher, maybe. Most were over the hill or too young (JayRod) at that stage to make a difference.DCWat wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:04 pmI don’t entirely agree with that - had we not had the upheaval of Coyles departure, I think we had a reasonable chance of survival. By no means guaranteed but it certainly want beyond the realms of possibility.
The players weren’t PL quality, on the whole, though as we’ve seen ourselves in recent history, team spirit goes a hell of a long way.
Spirit HAD gone and the writing was on the wall and I doubt many managers would have kept that squad up. Dyche had a better squad when he took us down. Last season was miles better and we went down.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
There are a lot of ‘What Ifs’ that have been discussed here many times, but I didn't think Laws was a dreadful appointment at the time. Uninspired, I agree, but he could bring in a whole team with him and kick on straight away... And there are some good people with him, like Stuart Gray and Billy Mercer.
Players didn't like him, though and morale collapsed. He was never going to win the fans over, either.
Players didn't like him, though and morale collapsed. He was never going to win the fans over, either.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Have we ever made a more underwhelming managerial appointment?
Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Laws on paper made some sensible signings to address some shortcomings in the short time he had to do them - Fox at left back, Cort at centre back.
It's difficult to imagine anyone doing much better with what were mostly journeymen footballers who had over achieved under Coyle.
It was interesting to know a bit more of the background to the situation from the OP.
It's difficult to imagine anyone doing much better with what were mostly journeymen footballers who had over achieved under Coyle.
It was interesting to know a bit more of the background to the situation from the OP.
Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Oh plenty, I give you John Benson and Tommy Cavanagh for a start.JohnDearyMe wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:28 pmHave we ever made a more underwhelming managerial appointment?
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
It was a dreadful appointment at the time and the board probably knew it.JohnDearyMe wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:28 pmHave we ever made a more underwhelming managerial appointment?
I get we made bad appointments in the early 80’s but then we weren’t in the top division.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
It always seemed Flood had some romantic notion of bringing Laws back to Burnley in a blaze of glory. The were many times when he would have been considered a good appointment but struggling in the Premier League was absolutely not one of them.
Have a lot of sympathy with him, but his moans about lack of budget do need to be balanced by the £4m he spunked on the cart horse slow centre half who’s name I can’t even remember - Cort was it? Pound for pound possible the worst signing the club ever made.
Have a lot of sympathy with him, but his moans about lack of budget do need to be balanced by the £4m he spunked on the cart horse slow centre half who’s name I can’t even remember - Cort was it? Pound for pound possible the worst signing the club ever made.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Michael Jackson, after the board naively thought an established manager would want it on on an interim basis.JohnDearyMe wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:28 pmHave we ever made a more underwhelming managerial appointment?
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Leon Cort. Didn't realise we spent money on him. He was poor. All managers sign donkeys though.scouseclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:13 pmHave a lot of sympathy with him, but his moans about lack of budget do need to be balanced by the £4m he spunked on the cart horse slow centre half who’s name I can’t even remember - Cort was it? Pound for pound possible the worst signing the club ever made.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
I thought it was more like £1.5m.scouseclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:13 pmIt always seemed Flood had some romantic notion of bringing Laws back to Burnley in a blaze of glory. The were many times when he would have been considered a good appointment but struggling in the Premier League was absolutely not one of them.
Have a lot of sympathy with him, but his moans about lack of budget do need to be balanced by the £4m he spunked on the cart horse slow centre half who’s name I can’t even remember - Cort was it? Pound for pound possible the worst signing the club ever made.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
£1.5 million on Cortscouseclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:13 pmIt always seemed Flood had some romantic notion of bringing Laws back to Burnley in a blaze of glory. The were many times when he would have been considered a good appointment but struggling in the Premier League was absolutely not one of them.
Have a lot of sympathy with him, but his moans about lack of budget do need to be balanced by the £4m he spunked on the cart horse slow centre half who’s name I can’t even remember - Cort was it? Pound for pound possible the worst signing the club ever made.
£1 million on Marney
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Stand corrected - I always thought it more than that.
Didn’t realise he’d signed Marney either - at least there was some sort of a legacy.
Didn’t realise he’d signed Marney either - at least there was some sort of a legacy.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Marney was his best buy, but let's not forget the destroyer of Preston, Big Chris Iwelumoscouseclaret wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:12 pmStand corrected - I always thought it more than that.
Didn’t realise he’d signed Marney either - at least there was some sort of a legacy.
Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
They were definitely seen as underwhelming. Tommy Cavanagh used to be the guy who ran on with the magic sponge at Man United!JohnDearyMe wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:04 pmWere they perceived as bad appointments at the time or did that just become apparent later on? They were before my time
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
I found this on my phone todayGodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:22 pmMarney was his best buy, but let's not forget the destroyer of Preston, Big Chris Iwelumo
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
I remember seeing BL get out of the lift in the hotel on the day of his first game (Old Trafford).
I've never seen anyone look so scared.
I've never seen anyone look so scared.
Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Laws never should have been appointed in the first place, so the blame lies with the board with that one, but he was treated fairly poorly at times by our fans.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Nice guy. Third Tier Manager at best.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Poisoned chalice that job - doubt anyone could have had any success.
We were falling before Coyle left but it wasn’t necessarily evident - so the fall would be pinned on the successor no matter what.
As for the Barnsley game, I can remember being at Oakwell and seeing some numpties run over to the side of the away end near to the tunnel and gave Laws dogs abuse which was totally unacceptable… of course we did go on to win 2-1 and I believe Guidetti scored one of his only goals for us.
The Scunthorpe game at home was a stinker tbh, the team looked devoid of ideas and the atmosphere was pretty toxic.
All I’ll say is thanks Lawsy for Billy Mercer and signing Dean Marney
We were falling before Coyle left but it wasn’t necessarily evident - so the fall would be pinned on the successor no matter what.
As for the Barnsley game, I can remember being at Oakwell and seeing some numpties run over to the side of the away end near to the tunnel and gave Laws dogs abuse which was totally unacceptable… of course we did go on to win 2-1 and I believe Guidetti scored one of his only goals for us.
The Scunthorpe game at home was a stinker tbh, the team looked devoid of ideas and the atmosphere was pretty toxic.
All I’ll say is thanks Lawsy for Billy Mercer and signing Dean Marney
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Madness to think we appointed a man that had last been potted by a team because he was about to oversee their relegation to the 3rd tier of English football.
Someone mentioned Cort as being a 'sensible' signing at £1.5m. That person has to be in drink. Apologies if not.
Whether it was a poisoned chalice or not, he was the wrong appointment for many, many reasons. And so it proved.
Someone mentioned Cort as being a 'sensible' signing at £1.5m. That person has to be in drink. Apologies if not.
Whether it was a poisoned chalice or not, he was the wrong appointment for many, many reasons. And so it proved.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
i nearly dropped my kitkat when we got laws.
he must have thought the phone call offering him the job was some kind of wind up.
timmy mallett or something.
he must have thought the phone call offering him the job was some kind of wind up.
timmy mallett or something.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Funnily enough in the podcast he talks about a prank call Peter Beagrie did on him as a player and pretending to be some manager who wanted to sign him.
He says when he got the call about Burnley job he thought it could be Beagrie again on the wind up.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
claretburns wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:07 amFunnily enough in the podcast he talks about a prank call Peter Beagrie did on him as a player and pretending to be some manager who wanted to sign him.
He says when he got the call about Burnley job he thought it could be Beagrie again on the wind up.
it was rather incredible.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
I think Cort was 1.8 mill and already 30 years old. Not a bad player in his day, I know some Hull fans who rated him highly, but past his best by then. Stoke knew we were desperate, and had our pants down at that price.
Marney I think was only about 400k and an absolute bargain. Did well for all the managers here, but especially flourished under Dyche.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
When I hear about clubs’s being ‘toxic’ I always think they’re playing at it compared to that game at Barnsley. Quite a bizarre atmosphere in there that afternoon.CoolClaret wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:28 amAs for the Barnsley game, I can remember being at Oakwell and seeing some numpties run over to the side of the away end near to the tunnel and gave Laws dogs abuse which was totally unacceptable… of course we did go on to win 2-1 and I believe Guidetti scored one of his only goals for us.
Anyway, as for Laws, he just completely sucked the life out of what was left of that crazy first promotion era. Howe actually did a very decent job in hindsight cleaning it all up even if it never happened on the pitch for him.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
I think it’s a fallacy to think that whoever we got was taking us down. If we’d won at Wigan we’d have stayed up - that’s how close it was despite the squad. Even a ‘slightly’ better candidate would have achieved that.
Laws was dealt a rough hand by the squad undoubtedly but he did a poor job at Burnley all told, I doubt he would disagree with that. It sounds like even he knows he didn’t win over the squad and I think the reason for that is that they were an experienced group who probably felt much the same as the fans when it was announced (I.e, “Laws? Really?”). He was on a hiding to nothing really.
Cort was a very poor signing but after we were relegated he brought in Marney, Wallace and Iwelumo who all did well overall for us to varying degrees with Marney in particular being a stalwart for many years.
Laws was dealt a rough hand by the squad undoubtedly but he did a poor job at Burnley all told, I doubt he would disagree with that. It sounds like even he knows he didn’t win over the squad and I think the reason for that is that they were an experienced group who probably felt much the same as the fans when it was announced (I.e, “Laws? Really?”). He was on a hiding to nothing really.
Cort was a very poor signing but after we were relegated he brought in Marney, Wallace and Iwelumo who all did well overall for us to varying degrees with Marney in particular being a stalwart for many years.
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Re: Brian Laws - Undr the Cosh
Just thinking back. Wasn’t Dyche an underwhelming appointment at the time?