The Mormons are coming

[Devils_Advocate]

I take issue with the idea that just because you are religious, you are somehow nicer

I think Christopher Hitchens summed this up well with the challenge he often posed to his audiences

"Here is my challenge. Let someone name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever. And here is my second challenge. Can any of you think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith?"

Obviously all the good stuff (and there is a hell of a lot of good stuff) done my religion can and is equally done by none religious people but there are certain things such as genital mutilation of young children that is done in the name of religion of which no sane minded person would think about doing without a religious belief that instructs it

[martin_p]

Did they come for Christmas?

Yes, although I believe they called it ‘Jesus’s 30th Birthday Bash’. The boys came over for the weekend, Jesus, his 12 ‘dudes’ and Arimathea. Ran up a huge bar tab which Judas picked up because everyone else had done a runner. Ended up very bitter about it and swore he’d have his revenge.

[Lancasterclaret]

I don't think anyone is trying to make that point. Certainly not on this thread.

For clarity of what I have said, the point I made was that lots of Mormons are nice and that this is clearly something cultural. What I didn't say was that they were nice because they are religious.

I'd like to repeat the idea that we ought to be looking, as a society, the replicate things that help people to live happy, healthy, prosperous lives and things that spread manners, courtesy and politeness. These things are at the heart of every good culture.

Everyone is nice, until they prove they aren't

I'm sure its the same percentage in anything if it helps, but if you have very deeply held beliefs about stuff and you are unwilling to recognise reality, then I'd suggest you are a lot more likely not to be nice if those beliefs are challenged

[Rowls]

Everyone is nice, until they prove they aren't

I'm sure its the same percentage in anything if it helps, but if you have very deeply held beliefs about stuff and you are unwilling to recognise reality, then I'd suggest you are a lot more likely not to be nice if those beliefs are challenged

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

Are you saying that niceness is evenly spread across humanity?

[CoolClaret]

Yes, although I believe they called it ‘Jesus’s 30th Birthday Bash’. The boys came over for the weekend, Jesus, his 12 ‘dudes’ and Arimathea. Ran up a huge bar tab which Judas picked up because everyone else had done a runner. Ended up very bitter about it and swore he’d have his revenge.

You sure it wasn’t hospitality at the Turf mid-charging again?

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

Are you saying that niceness is evenly spread across humanity?

Pretty much

[CoolClaret]

Mischarging *

[Burnley Ace]

Did they come for Christmas?

They came for Glastonbury

[Rowls]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

Are you saying that niceness is evenly spread across humanity?

Pretty much

I think that's shockingly naive and preposterous, Lancaster, I really do.

How about this for a test: I'll go to Utah and ask to have a look around and meet up with the locals. You go to Mogadishu or Kabul and do the same.

We'll compare our experiences of how nice and welcoming the locals were when we get back.

If you get back.

[Socrates]

I think that's shockingly naive and preposterous, Lancaster, I really do.

How about this for a test: I'll go to Utah and ask to have a look around and meet up with the locals. You go to Mogadishu or Kabul and do the same.

We'll compare our experiences of how nice and welcoming the locals were when we get back.

If you get back.

How many times have you been to Mogadishu or Kabul?

[Rowls]

How many times have you been to Mogadishu or Kabul?

I'm not willing to go TBH.

They don't seem very nice.

Which is the point I'm making.

Happily spend a few days in Utah though. That looks nice, as do the people.

[Socrates]

42 murders per million people on average in the US.

15 in Somalia.

A whole heap more guns in America too.

[Socrates]

I'm not willing to go TBH.

They don't seem very nice.

Which is the point I'm making.

Happily spend a few days in Utah though. That looks nice, as do the people.

Ah right.

So based on nothing other than conjecture. I thought as much.

Could almost say your post was shockingly naive and preposterous.

[NRC]

I’ve read a little bit about Mormonism mainly because I was interested about what they are about…………..
Mormonism seems to be particularly strange given it’s a new religion based on one blokes vision however ever Mormon I’ve ever met has been very decent.

I guess that makes Islam particularly strange too……. Oh and Jehovah’s Witnesses are particularly strange. Do we count Zechariah’s (one blokes) vision to make Christianity particularly strange too?

So, if we do include the latter, then that’s at least the world’s top two religions (by follower count) “particularly strange”

Just sayin…..

[Rowls]

Ah right.

So based on nothing other than conjecture. I thought as much.

Could almost say your post was shockingly naive and preposterous.

It's not "conjecture", it's from my experience and learning.

Aside from watching news and reading books etc. I've met and interviewed countless Afghans and Somalians. Very few of them were polite or nice. They clearly held no virtue in telling the truth. Dishonesty was commonplace, manners as I understand them were very lacking at best.

My experience and learning contradicts directly Lancasters ascertion that niceness is spread evenly across humanity. It isn't. It's a cultural virtue that has to be taught, inculcated and constantly reinforced. Without this cultural reinforcement, we'd easily all become lying, cheating, self-centred animals.

I've met a handful of Mormons. They were all polite, cheery and nice. They seemed to value honesty which is something I hold highly.

Culture is an extremely powerful tool and if we can create virtuous and hard-working cultures of honesty, truth and fidelity we can create a better society for ourselves.

Do you imagine that if you took an orphan from Somalia and raised it with a Mormon family in Utah that the baby wouldn't have a completely different cultural outlook to the same child had it been raised in a Somalia? Of course it wouldn't.

It's preposterous.

I understand that accepting this is tricky and it raises a number of difficult questions but equivocating and obfuscating about it won't make it any less true.

[Beagle]

It's not "conjecture", it's from my experience and learning.

Aside from watching news and reading books etc. I've met and interviewed countless Afghans and Somalians. Very few of them were polite or nice. They clearly held no virtue in telling the truth. Dishonesty was commonplace, manners as I understand them were very lacking at best.

My experience and learning contradicts directly Lancasters ascertion that niceness is spread evenly across humanity. It isn't. It's a cultural virtue that has to be taught, inculcated and constantly reinforced. Without this cultural reinforcement, we'd easily all become lying, cheating, self-centred animals.

I've met a handful of Mormons. They were all polite, cheery and nice. They seemed to value honesty which is something I hold highly.

Culture is an extremely powerful tool and if we can create virtuous and hard-working cultures of honesty, truth and fidelity we can create a better society for ourselves.

Do you imagine that if you took an orphan from Somalia and raised it with a Mormon family in Utah that the baby wouldn't have a completely different cultural outlook to the same child had it been raised in a Somalia? Of course it wouldn't.

It's preposterous.

I understand that accepting this is tricky and it raises a number of difficult questions but equivocating and obfuscating about it won't make it any less true.

Your immense ignorance and stupidity is matched only by your confidence and eagerness to share it with world. Or at least your world, which appears to be entirely confined to delusional rants on a Burnley FC forum.

[bobinho]

Without wishing to offend anyone, I feel the same about most religions. The only difference being the degree of their cultishness.

You spelt that wrong…

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm not willing to go TBH.

They don't seem very nice.

Which is the point I'm making.

Happily spend a few days in Utah though. That looks nice, as do the people.

The big group of fat Americans in fatigues we met in a pub/diner in Utah would probably have been a far right militia group (for balance, it could have been a Cuban invasion force). I'm not sure they count as nice

I think there are nice people in Somalia, Afghanistan and Utah

I also think the not very nice people in all three places will be the ones who misuse religion

Does that help?

[Lancasterclaret]

It's not "conjecture", it's from my experience and learning.

Aside from watching news and reading books etc. I've met and interviewed countless Afghans and Somalians. Very few of them were polite or nice. They clearly held no virtue in telling the truth. Dishonesty was commonplace, manners as I understand them were very lacking at best.

My experience and learning contradicts directly Lancasters ascertion that niceness is spread evenly across humanity. It isn't. It's a cultural virtue that has to be taught, inculcated and constantly reinforced. Without this cultural reinforcement, we'd easily all become lying, cheating, self-centred animals.

I've met a handful of Mormons. They were all polite, cheery and nice. They seemed to value honesty which is something I hold highly.

Culture is an extremely powerful tool and if we can create virtuous and hard-working cultures of honesty, truth and fidelity we can create a better society for ourselves.

Do you imagine that if you took an orphan from Somalia and raised it with a Mormon family in Utah that the baby wouldn't have a completely different cultural outlook to the same child had it been raised in a Somalia? Of course it wouldn't.

It's preposterous.

I understand that accepting this is tricky and it raises a number of difficult questions but equivocating and obfuscating about it won't make it any less true.

Your experience (based on what you have said on here) is lived in France, but voted for Brexit

I think naïve and preposterous nails it

[Lancasterclaret]

Congratulations for ruining another thread btw Rowls

[Rowls]

Your immense ignorance and stupidity is matched only by your confidence and eagerness to share it with world. Or at least your world, which appears to be entirely confined to delusional rants on a Burnley FC forum.

I'm simply putting forward my own beliefs and I take time to be as polite as possible. I don't always succeed in the latter but I do try.

Isn't that what the forum is for? - Posting our own views and sharing discussion?

You call my beliefs a "delusion". I refute that.

I think things such as good manners, positive attitude, work ethic, politeness and a whole host of other traits are highly dependent on the culture in which we live. Mormons seem to display abundandt levels of many of these admirable qualities. Other cultures don't seem to value them at all.

I've already said that this might be tricky for some people to accept but the difficulty in this won't make it any less true. Neither will insulting me make it any less true.

[Rowls]

Congratulations for ruining another thread btw Rowls

I'm only discussing the matter as politely as I can, Lancaster.

[Rowls]

Your experience (based on what you have said on here) is lived in France, but voted for Brexit

I think naïve and preposterous nails it

This appears to be a personal attack on me and very off topic.

Why?

I've offered to meet in person if you're genuinely interested in having a proper discussion and a healthy debate over a pint. Why bring my opinions on Brexit into a thread about Mormons?

And also have the cheek to say I've "ruined" the thread?

[Lancasterclaret]

You are not

You name Kabul and Mogadishu as examples of not very nice places (I'm sure they are not btw)

You then say "other cultures don't seem to value good manners, positive attiutude, work ethic, politeness"

You've named brown Muslim countries

You do see that don't you?

[Lancasterclaret]

This appears to be a personal attack on me and very off topic.

Why?

I've offered to meet in person if you're genuinely interested in having a proper discussion and a healthy debate over a pint. Why bring my opinions on Brexit into a thread about Mormons?

And also have the cheek to say I've "ruined" the thread?

See my last post

I meet people on here if I see them at games Rowls, because I go to the game, and then I go home

If I met you at a game, then i'd be more than happy to talk to you about anything (and that goes for anyone on here, even the pillocks) but I'd rather watch the game!

[Rowls]

You are not

You name Kabul and Mogadishu as examples of not very nice places (I'm sure they are not btw)

You then say "other cultures don't seem to value good manners, positive attiutude, work ethic, politeness"

You've named brown Muslim countries

You do see that don't you?

I could have name-checked North Korea or Russia but I don't think they fit point so well because we were talking about culture in a religious perspective.

It's true that both the countries are Muslim but are you suggesting I shouldn't say something true simply because it might be an uncomfortable truth?

What are you accusing me of here? You managed to make a criticism of the Mormon faith earlier in the thread, which may well be very justified. I've simply pointed out some positive aspects about Mormon culture as a counterpoint.

Why shouldn't I be able to reference Muslim culture as a counterpoint too?

Edit - and I have to say here, that "Muslim culture" is a very broad brush that wasn't well chosen. There was, for example, a clear distinct difference between the national character of the Afghans and the Somalians, despite them both being Islamic countries.

[Rowls]

See my last post

I meet people on here if I see them at games Rowls, because I go to the game, and then I go home

If I met you at a game, then i'd be more than happy to talk to you about anything (and that goes for anyone on here, even the pillocks) but I'd rather watch the game!

Well that's fine but then please don't post insults or make insinuations about me. Especially when they're off topic.

[Spiral]

"Gosh, how polite and civil those people all are," pondered Catherine, as she left the national conference for the abolition of interracial marriage.

[Lancasterclaret]

Well that's fine but then please don't post insults or make insinuations about me. Especially when they're off topic.

Its not an insult to say you lived in France and voted for Brexit, nor is it an insult to say you are naïve and preposterous because you did

Its just reality sadly

If it helps, I do believe that having some sort of decent upbringing massively helps in how people act, but that doesn't have to be religious, it can be a gay dad, or three trans sexual people, or whatever

As long as people are bought up decently, then it doesn't matter which culture, which religion, which ethnic group etc etc, they are almost always going to end up fundamentally decent human beings (and of course, there are exceptions, and of course, there are external events that can change that)

[Rowls]

Its not an insult to say you lived in France and voted for Brexit, nor is it an insult to say you are naïve and preposterous because you did

Its just reality sadly

You can equivocate all you like on this but you were insinuating me to be hypocrite. You labelled me as naive and preposterous whereas I labelled your opinion as naive and preposterous. Your post was completely off topic and a personal attack on me. Mine was neither of these things.

Feel free to correct me if I've got this wrong but that was how it came across.

As long as people are bought up decently, then it doesn't matter which culture, which religion, which ethnic group etc etc,

But if some cultures are better than others then it does matter. If you bring up a child decently within a rotten culture it will be much trickier than bringing up a child decently inside a productive and polite culture. This seems obvious to me but your ascertian about values being spread evenly across humanity contradicts it.

You've made a legitimate critique of Mormon culture and yet you seem hair-trigger sensitve to the comparison I drew with the culture of Mogadishu or Kabul. Is your critique any more legitimate than mine?

I don't think it is.

I think it's high time we placed much more value on culture and understood how to elevate and promote values that inculcate a productive, happy and healthy culture.

[Lancasterclaret]

Your definition of culture, or mine, or Abdullahs down the road, or Xang-chis at No 45?

[Rowls]

Your definition of culture, or mine, or Abdullahs down the road, or Xang-chis at No 45?

All cultures are slightly different. That was my point.

Some are politer and nicer than others. Mormon culture (whatever its other faults) is one of the politest, friendliest, hard-working and most positive culutres I know of. This is what you were apparently disputing.

I really do rest my case here.