Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

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Marney neyMar
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Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Marney neyMar » Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:16 pm

An incredible thread analysing our tactics (how & why) has been posted on Twitter.
With embedded videos which demonstrates the principals in action.

Well worth 10 mins of anyone’s time to read & watch.

We are so so lucky to by watching this revolution in our playing style get better and better each week.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1636 ... 32322.html
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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by RVclaret » Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:30 pm

Just commented on this on another thread…

Brilliant analysis and comments on VK and what he’s done with us. I enjoy the tactical side of the game so it’s brilliant to see the different set ups we play. This thread shows how important the full backs are in this system.
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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by PremierLeagueClass » Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:36 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:30 pm
Just commented on this on another thread…

Brilliant analysis and comments on VK and what he’s done with us. I enjoy the tactical side of the game so it’s brilliant to see the different set ups we play. This thread shows how important the full backs are in this system.
This was evident at Blackpool where we really missed Maatsen.

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by FeedTheArf » Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:48 pm

Must admit, I've been watching footy for 30 years, but never really understood the tactical nuances of the game.

High press, overloads, all of that doesn't mean a great deal to me. I know when we're playing well and I know when we're not and that's enough for me.

But when someone who is clearly switched on to all the little intricacies of how we're playing breaks it down to that level of detail, you really appreciate the work that goes on at Gawthorpe and just what Kompany and team are achieving with these players.
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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by gawthorpe_view » Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:11 pm

It gets even better, Kompany saying 'we've got a three or four year period together'

https://www.skysports.com/football/hull ... ley/468265
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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Colburn_Claret » Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:23 pm

Excellent analysis.
Yet some people still worry. O ye of little faith

UTC

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Spiral » Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:24 pm

One other string to our bow not analysed in the thread in the rotation between the CDM and the CB, usually always Beyer and Cullen, whenever the opposition pack the midfield to cut out the lanes to our front 5 attacking players. If our players who are positioned to receive the ball in midfield are being man-marked, say for example Cullen, and there's not a forward pass available for the ball holding CB for about six seconds, Cullen will drag his marker very deep, taking up the centre back position for Beyer to drive forward and penetrate the space vacated by Cullen. I wouldn't be surprised if the players are drilled to read the ball holding CB's body language and count 1-2-3-4-5-6 etc in their heads whenever the CBs have the ball facing forward, and if a pass is not made after X amount of time, it triggers for the CDM to come into the defensive line. It forces a hole in the opposition midfield and overcomes the opposition matching us up in midfield, because the opposition marker either follows the CDM into the deep position, creating space for the CB to run into, or they drop the man-mark and let the CDM receive the ball. Beyer has been amazing for this because his dribbling confidence gives us an option that we don't have quite as much with Taylor and THB who don't have Bayer's balance and dribbling control.

The basic principle is to have minimum of 5 in attack, and what happens behind that is the key which unlocks it all.
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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Colburn_Claret » Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:56 pm

Spiral wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:24 pm
One other string to our bow not analysed in the thread in the rotation between the CDM and the CB, usually always Beyer and Cullen, whenever the opposition pack the midfield to cut out the lanes to our front 5 attacking players. If our players who are positioned to receive the ball in midfield are being man-marked, say for example Cullen, and there's not a forward pass available for the ball holding CB for about six seconds, Cullen will drag his marker very deep, taking up the centre back position for Beyer to drive forward and penetrate the space vacated by Cullen. I wouldn't be surprised if the players are drilled to read the ball holding CB's body language and count 1-2-3-4-5-6 etc in their heads whenever the CBs have the ball facing forward, and if a pass is not made after X amount of time, it triggers for the CDM to come into the defensive line. It forces a hole in the opposition midfield and overcomes the opposition matching us up in midfield, because the opposition marker either follows the CDM into the deep position, creating space for the CB to run into, or they drop the man-mark and let the CDM receive the ball. Beyer has been amazing for this because his dribbling confidence gives us an option that we don't have quite as much with Taylor and THB who don't have Bayer's balance and dribbling control.

The basic principle is to have minimum of 5 in attack, and what happens behind that is the key which unlocks it all.
Just realised reading your post, that there was no mention in the analysis for Muric, who plays a massive role in everything we are trying to do, and is so often the reason other teams fail miserably at trying to go man to man with us.
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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Goddy » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:01 pm

It's funny you mention that, spiral, (about how/when Beyer goes on those runs)....for the first time, yesterday (sometime in the first half) I noticed exactly that and realised what was going on. Cullen dropped deep, Hull player dragged with Cullen, space created, off goes Beyer.

I also noticed that, as a result, Cullen, in effect stayed back as a centre half whilst Beyer was out of position heading forward, so we weren't weakened particularly, at the back should things break down.

Clever stuff, thought I as I watched all that unfold.....

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Marney neyMar » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:18 pm

I’ve been watching as a fan but am not tactically savvy enough to appreciate the nuances it in real time when it’s playing out in front of me.
My analysis from a limited view in the CFS is more basic - are we playing well or not?
Can we move the ball more quickly?
Will we score more goals?

It’s nice to see the thought behind the tactics and how flexible we’ve been to tweak depending on the set up.

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Hipper » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:20 pm

I don't like the start of it: 'VK has changed Burnley from a long ball team.....' Lazy but also rubbish. Half the players in the 'long ball team' had gone.

Anyway, I'll read on despite that.

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Hipper » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:40 pm

It's an interesting and good article but as mentioned above with no mention of Muric it's not complete.

I'm also not convinced that tactics alone, even with pretty near the best players in The Championship, will be enough to succeed in The Premier League. In particular I feel we are lacking in the physique and physical demands of the top division. I look forward to seeing if I'm wrong. I hope it will be fun.

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by NRC » Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:55 pm

Hipper wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:20 pm
I don't like the start of it: 'VK has changed Burnley from a long ball team.....' Lazy but also rubbish. Half the players in the 'long ball team' had gone.

Anyway, I'll read on despite that.
it's a comment about the style, not the players

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by jmu1 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:05 pm

Really interesting read and a good point made by Spiral regarding the Cullen/Beyer link up
It has been interesting to watch as our style has evolved as the season has progressed and settled into this formation over the last 10 games or so
Probably means Jack Cork is no longer in the first 11 as Cullen plays the CDM role so well
Will be interesting to see how “solid” these tactics are on Saturday

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Hipper » Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:24 pm

NRC wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:55 pm
it's a comment about the style, not the players
I don't see the relevance though. It's no credit to VK that the tactics changed. It was his choice whatever tactics he wanted and he brought new players in to achieve this as well as changing the 'old dogs'. I don't know but it's quite possible that Pace and co wanted a change in style in any case and Kompany got the job because he said he would do this. Quite how he would have carried this out had we not been relegated I don't know - in stages I'd guess. I'm sure Dyche too could change the way we played with the right resources, as he showed when we had Defour and Brady in the team for six months.

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Nori1958 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:40 pm

But he's a liar........apparently..says finances are fine....but some on here beg to differ......iam on Vincent's side...
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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Stan Tastic » Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:48 pm

I never thought I'd see the day when Burnley played the 2-3-5 formation, even momentarily.

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by basil6345789 » Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:58 pm

Does overload mean out-number?
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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by CoolClaret » Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:59 am

basil6345789 wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:58 pm
Does overload mean out-number?
Means aiming to deliberately create situations where you’ve got more players in one area than the opposition.

All our play from our centrehalves being ball carriers to having wingers that can win one on one dribbles against a full back help contribute to this

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Spiral » Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:36 am

basil6345789 wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:58 pm
Does overload mean out-number?
In defence of jargon...

Yup. Refers to having at least one more player than the opponent in any arbitrarily defined zone/area of the pitch. Say you draw imaginary invisible lines over different parts of the pitch or shade in areas/zones of the pitch, an area either on the pitch itself, for example, the imaginary box on the wings from the half way line to the corner of the penalty area, or another example, the space in the penalty area in line with the goalposts; or say you imagine team shape at any moment like subbuteo — a static picture — you can imagine these lines between units, for example the space within that subbuteo layout occupied by either our own or the opposition midfielders, wingers etc, you basically imagine cutting either the pitch or the team as a unit (yourself or the opponent) into little chunks or zones. What the manager wants to happen in every different area is going to be different depending on who has the ball, where the play is happening, how both teams are set up, who is playing etc, and this evolves literally second by second during a game. You need shorthand terms for communicating this, so once you've drummed into the players minds 1. what "overload" means (or any other technical/jargon term), and 2. precisely how to achieve it tactically so that every player knows what they are supposed to do, if drilled well enough the word bundles up a whole load of tactical and physical instructions into a single, often adaptable phrase which can communicate tactical instruction that players can act upon immediately and with total clarity. It seems like pointless jargon to the layman and a lot of people scoff at it, but when your tactics are as precise as ours are, you can relay to the players that we need to "overload" a specific area of the pitch (which will vary depending on the opponent), and because the players have spent hours and hours practicing it, the requirements become as automatic and as well understood as things like "cross the ball" or "hold a high line".

When you think about a manager instructing a team to "put crosses in", he can scream it at his players at half time and when they go out, the winger, midfielder and strikers all know what is being asked of them based on that one simple instruction. As far as the usefulness of the term is concerned, creating an "overload" is no different to any other jargon term in football. Manager sees something in the opposition's tactics, gets the players in at half time, "right boys, they're trying to play around our midfield, so we need to adapt the game plan, I'm going to need you to overload the wide areas". Boom, all players immediately switch tack, now the fullback has a new task, the winger has a new task, the centre midfielder has a new task, the fullback's task is going to make the centre backs take up a different position, the winger on the other side of the pitch is going to take up different positions because the centre midfield is shifted, the fullback on the other side has a new position because of the movement of the centre backs, the striker needs to manage his distances differently, all this from a single instruction summed up in one term, "overload", which the players have been drilled to understand and respond to without thinking.

If "overload" can conceptualise all this, visually, in the mind, better than "out-number" can, then it's useful to drop the old word and use a newer, clearer one. If, out of habit, old terms like "out-number" come with too many pre-conceived tactical ideas which you wish the players to avoid, it's probably better to coach a tactical idea under a new clear term that is to appropriate or re-purpose an old term which (especially if there's different languages being spoken) under the pressure of a game and in a state of confusion might cause a player to fall back old patterns of play which they've learned from the old term, when a manager in fact wants something entirely different. The clarity of a new term can be really useful. If eleven players were all taught different meanings of "out-number" at eleven previous different clubs because the coaching terms weren't standardised, a new standardised term is more helpful to use.

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Spiral » Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:14 am

I've thought of another reason why "overload" and "outnumber" might theoretically be required to coexist as separate ideas rather than being synonyms. For the record this is 100% pure theoretical speculation at this point, I've no idea if this is what is actually going through any manager's mind (it probably isn't), but it's very illustrative, I think. Let's say for example a manager needs to communicate to his players that the opposition is creating an overload which they need to overcome by some tactical shift. He might say something like, "we are being outnumbered in midfield/wide areas/in attack/some specific area" etc. This is a diagnosis of a problem, not a tactical instruction. The term "outnumbered" can be used to describe to the players a problem, and from that understanding a solution can be applied. So basically, a descriptive term applied to what has happened or is happening. "Overload" on the other hand, exists within the footy lexicon as a kind of imperative. It's an instruction. One can be used for description, the other implies action. Keep them separate from one another and communication becomes clearer. Imagine how confusing "outnumber" as a tactical instruction, and "outnumbered" as a description might be to a player who doesn't speak English too well.

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Marney neyMar » Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:51 am

The article highlights how we’re playing is now similar to a number of the elite teams in the prem.
But how should we set up to counter an opposition set up this way?
I know we’ll see tomorrow what Kompany does / doesn’t do when we play against City. But it’s a problem we’ve not had this season but will have increasingly more next year.
Is it all about our transitions and winning the ball back?
Or is there any other received wisdom assuming we don’t abandon all of our principals and revert to a low block against the better teams.

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by roperclaret » Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:53 am

Hipper wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:20 pm
I don't like the start of it: 'VK has changed Burnley from a long ball team.....' Lazy but also rubbish. Half the players in the 'long ball team' had gone.

Anyway, I'll read on despite that.
But we were in most parts a long ball team. Not necessarily hoofs but we played more long balls than other teams

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by quoonbeatz » Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:08 am

Nothing new there is there and whoever wrote it misses quite a bit out. Plus they keep using 'elite' like one of those 14 year olds calling themselves @cr7goat on twitter would.

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Spiral » Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:37 pm

It's a twitter thread about our fullbacks to be fair. I think it's unfair to hold it to the standard of a paid article.

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by Hipper » Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:18 pm

roperclaret wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:53 am
But we were in most parts a long ball team. Not necessarily hoofs but we played more long balls than other teams
My point was that VK has not changed the teams tactics because the relegated team no longer existed. Half the players left, notably all the centre backs. Whilst he still had a few of the old guard he could bring in who he liked and create a new team, which is what he's done. For those that thought the name 'Burnley' had become synonymous with 'long ball' they may have been surprised but for me anyway, something different was expected, especially when looking at the type of players he brought in and the way that we read Anderlecht played.

Therefore 'VK has changed Burnley from a long ball team...' may be strictly correct but that was not done by any magical coaching; it was simply his wish and he brought in players to fulfill that wish.

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Re: Kompany’s tactics. Must read/watch

Post by RVclaret » Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:42 pm

Same account has done a mini thread on our tactics against City.

https://twitter.com/ebl2017/status/1637 ... 59Piho1d6w

Basically full of praise for the set up and where we are heading.

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