Wigan Points Deduction

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Vegas Claret
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Re: Wigan in serious trouble

Post by Vegas Claret » Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:41 pm

randomclaret2 wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:37 pm
The last two sales have been disastrous for them
this is supposed to be to some Swiss organization

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Re: Wigan in serious trouble

Post by Swizzlestick » Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:19 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:41 pm
this is supposed to be to some Swiss organization
Hopefully not Dignitas :shock:

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Re: Wigan in serious trouble

Post by FCBurnley » Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:29 am

Wigan never has been and never will be a football town

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Re: Wigan in serious trouble

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:23 am

FCBurnley wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:29 am
Wigan never has been and never will be a football town
And?

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Re: Wigan in serious trouble

Post by Im_not_Robbie_Blake » Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:49 am

FCBurnley wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:29 am
Wigan never has been and never will be a football town
Why write such nonsense? Every town is a football town!

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Re: Wigan in serious trouble

Post by randomclaret2 » Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:51 am

Rugby League is the more popular sport there

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Re: Wigan in serious trouble

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:27 am

Lip wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:41 pm
The rumour has it that "Uncle Joe's Mint Balls" have put a bid in to buy the club ... 🤭
That'll keep 'em all aglow
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Re: Wigan in serious trouble

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:28 am

FCBurnley wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:29 am
Wigan never has been and never will be a football town
Seven consecutive seasons in the Premier League and winning the FA Cup would perhaps contradict that.

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Re: Wigan in serious trouble

Post by fatboy47 » Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:34 am

ClaretTony wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:28 am
Seven consecutive seasons in the Premier League and winning the FA Cup would perhaps contradict that.
Wycoller could probably achieve the same if a similar-minded fat cat strolled into the village with Whelans mentality.
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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Lip » Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:17 am

The DW stadium is closed today due to unforseen circumstances..Hmm.🤔

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by houseboy » Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:45 pm

I find it rather sad that many on here seem to be happy, or at least not in the least bit sad, that a football club, with fans and a community, are in desperate trouble. Almost making fun of it. Points deductions are wrong, I've said it before and I will keep on saying it, because it punishes the fans and the club, neither of whom are to blame for the mess, it also makes a mockery of the league because then other clubs benefit unfairly. There must be a way of punishing the actual guilty parties, the owners, who in the end are only temporary custodians. Wigan, and others such as Reading etc., as a football club have done nothing wrong, neither have the fans, it is those in (temporary) charge who are to blame.

There are some odd things in football these days but this points deduction madness is right up there with the worst in my opinion. Supposing that had happened to us in the past, I doubt there would be much support for it on these pages then.
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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by dsr » Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:47 pm

houseboy wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:45 pm
I find it rather sad that many on here seem to be happy, or at least not in the least bit sad, that a football club, with fans and a community, are in desperate trouble. Almost making fun of it. Points deductions are wrong, I've said it before and I will keep on saying it, because it punishes the fans and the club, neither of whom are to blame for the mess, it also makes a mockery of the league because then other clubs benefit unfairly. There must be a way of punishing the actual guilty parties, the owners, who in the end are only temporary custodians. Wigan, and others such as Reading etc., as a football club have done nothing wrong, neither have the fans, it is those in (temporary) charge who are to blame.

There are some odd things in football these days but this points deduction madness is right up there with the worst in my opinion. Supposing that had happened to us in the past, I doubt there would be much support for it on these pages then.
If it's wrong to make the fans suffer points deductions because of the illegal payments, then by definition it must be wrong to let them celebrate points "earned" because of the illegal payments. Wigan won promotion last year, while (and presumably because of) spending money they didn't have. Logically, those are the points that should have been deducted and they should have been relegated a division automatically, not just based on this year's performance.
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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Spijed » Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:01 pm

houseboy wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:45 pm
I find it rather sad that many on here seem to be happy, or at least not in the least bit sad, that a football club, with fans and a community, are in desperate trouble. Almost making fun of it. Points deductions are wrong, I've said it before and I will keep on saying it, because it punishes the fans and the club, neither of whom are to blame for the mess, it also makes a mockery of the league because then other clubs benefit unfairly. There must be a way of punishing the actual guilty parties, the owners, who in the end are only temporary custodians. Wigan, and others such as Reading etc., as a football club have done nothing wrong, neither have the fans, it is those in (temporary) charge who are to blame.

There are some odd things in football these days but this points deduction madness is right up there with the worst in my opinion. Supposing that had happened to us in the past, I doubt there would be much support for it on these pages then.
Punishing muti-billionaires in some cases, will mean nothing to their finances. So a pointless exercise.

And secondly, how do you bar dodgy owners from owning a football club if there are no buyers for that club?

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:48 pm

houseboy wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:45 pm
I find it rather sad that many on here seem to be happy, or at least not in the least bit sad, that a football club, with fans and a community, are in desperate trouble. Almost making fun of it. Points deductions are wrong, I've said it before and I will keep on saying it, because it punishes the fans and the club, neither of whom are to blame for the mess, it also makes a mockery of the league because then other clubs benefit unfairly. There must be a way of punishing the actual guilty parties, the owners, who in the end are only temporary custodians. Wigan, and others such as Reading etc., as a football club have done nothing wrong, neither have the fans, it is those in (temporary) charge who are to blame.

There are some odd things in football these days but this points deduction madness is right up there with the worst in my opinion. Supposing that had happened to us in the past, I doubt there would be much support for it on these pages then.
Couldn’t agree more but until there are better safeguards regarding some of these owners then these issues will continue at clubs.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:07 pm

The 21 year old who’s been trying to buy Morcambe for the past six months is trying to take over now according to The Athletic.

Worrying.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Chester Perry » Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:37 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:07 pm
The 21 year old who’s been trying to buy Morcambe for the past six months is trying to take over now according to The Athletic.

Worrying.
He has put quite a bit of money into Morecambe - but couldn't pass the owners and directors test

the Athletic article

Wigan Athletic ownership being pursued by 21-year-old entrepreneur Sarbjot Johal
https://archive.is/LEMuc

Martine Calladine who has followed the Morecambe story (which has been playing out on the MMT for all that time) more than anyone including providing much of the investigation in to Johal reacted in this way - this twitter thread is worth a read if you are not familiar with the story

https://twitter.com/uglygame/status/1665756428794056708

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Steele » Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:19 pm

In 1978 Wigan replaced Southport in the old 4th division via the so called 're-election' process even though the 'Port had finished 3rd from bottom.
I don't feel sorry for them at all.
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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by houseboy » Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:05 pm

dsr wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:47 pm
If it's wrong to make the fans suffer points deductions because of the illegal payments, then by definition it must be wrong to let them celebrate points "earned" because of the illegal payments. Wigan won promotion last year, while (and presumably because of) spending money they didn't have. Logically, those are the points that should have been deducted and they should have been relegated a division automatically, not just based on this year's performance.
This has been said before but how can you possibly stop fans celebrating success when they have no idea of the clubs finances? Would you have them apologise in retrospect? The fans have done absolutely nothing wrong. The club is a none thinking lifeless entity and cannot possibly be blamed for anything. The owners are wholly to blame and they are the ones who should be punished. And finally how do you actually prove that the overspending made them a success? We over-achieved for years both recently and in the past whilst operating on a shoestring. They may well have got promoted without said over spending and it would be hard to prove otherwise.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by houseboy » Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:11 pm

Spijed wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:01 pm
Punishing muti-billionaires in some cases, will mean nothing to their finances. So a pointless exercise.

And secondly, how do you bar dodgy owners from owning a football club if there are no buyers for that club?
I cannot disagree with you but I do know that punishing fans and the club whilst the guilty sit laughing is wholly wrong. Nothing at all will ever persuade me that ruining a league for the fault of some owners is not wrong. When Luton had their 30 points or whatever it was deducted years ago it actually reduced the bottom end competition to a farce because it reduced the number of relegation places. How can that ever be good? Bad teams have survived unfairly because of this nonsense.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:15 pm

The average fan doesn't want to know about a clubs finances.
The average fan doesn't care, so long as the club is doing ok.

Brum, Blackburn and Wigan fans never cared about their clubs finances when their respective clubs were lifting a trophy.

They only protested when things went pear shaped and suddenly after years of lording it over rival fans they want sympathy and not to be punished with points deductions etc despite not thinking about the fact their league positions were inflated due to their owners money.
They were taking points off other clubs because of said money and now the point's shouldn't be taken away because of poor financial management of said clubs?

There's not really any other way, unless the League's/FA start enforcing proper financial regulations/controls over clubs and that won't really happen.

Blackburn felt they were going to be returned "to their rightful place" in the PL league when the Venkys turned up, incase we all forgot and they stopped caring about the clubs finances again because they had a new "sugar daddy" who would pump millions into the club etc...

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by houseboy » Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:22 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:48 pm
Couldn’t agree more but until there are better safeguards regarding some of these owners then these issues will continue at clubs.
Agreed totally. I don’t have the answers. I think though the other problem is it only seems to be relatively small clubs who get punished in this way. Clubs with financial problems can’t afford world class lawyers and are therefore easy meat. As soon as the football authorities come up against a tiger with teeth (City?) they crumble and do nothing. In fact long established PL clubs seem to be immune even with no great wealth (Everton). Maybe the PL doesn’t want the world thinking that it’s over hyped, over financed glitter ball contains some dodgy offenders. Who knows?

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:48 pm

houseboy wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:22 pm
Agreed totally. I don’t have the answers. I think though the other problem is it only seems to be relatively small clubs who get punished in this way. Clubs with financial problems can’t afford world class lawyers and are therefore easy meat. As soon as the football authorities come up against a tiger with teeth (City?) they crumble and do nothing. In fact long established PL clubs seem to be immune even with no great wealth (Everton). Maybe the PL doesn’t want the world thinking that it’s over hyped, over financed glitter ball contains some dodgy offenders. Who knows?
City and the PL are currently facing off in court.
The PL doesn't have a time limit like Uefa.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:13 am

houseboy wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:22 pm
Agreed totally. I don’t have the answers. I think though the other problem is it only seems to be relatively small clubs who get punished in this way. Clubs with financial problems can’t afford world class lawyers and are therefore easy meat. As soon as the football authorities come up against a tiger with teeth (City?) they crumble and do nothing. In fact long established PL clubs seem to be immune even with no great wealth (Everton). Maybe the PL doesn’t want the world thinking that it’s over hyped, over financed glitter ball contains some dodgy offenders. Who knows?
There is a huge difference though. City, in particular, and Everton have money, they've just been breaking the rules for which they should rightly be punished. Sadly, some of these other clubs are being taken close to extinction by shocking owners. Currently it's Wigan and West Brom who are top of that list but there have been so many of them over the last couple of decades; that's frightening. It's gone from the likes of Bury, probably in some ways the best example, through to some bigger clubs who have been left on the brink, leaving supporters in so many cases to pick up the pieces.

Thankfully, we've never been in that position. We've had tough times, undoubtedly, but we've rode them out with the owners doing all they could to keep things going, never more so than when we suffered the ITV Digital collapse 21 years ago.
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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:19 am

houseboy wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:22 pm
Agreed totally. I don’t have the answers. I think though the other problem is it only seems to be relatively small clubs who get punished in this way. Clubs with financial problems can’t afford world class lawyers and are therefore easy meat. As soon as the football authorities come up against a tiger with teeth (City?) they crumble and do nothing. In fact long established PL clubs seem to be immune even with no great wealth (Everton). Maybe the PL doesn’t want the world thinking that it’s over hyped, over financed glitter ball contains some dodgy offenders. Who knows?
That just isn’t football that’s life you can make most problems go away as soon as you flash the cash.
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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by dsr » Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:12 am

houseboy wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:05 pm
This has been said before but how can you possibly stop fans celebrating success when they have no idea of the clubs finances? Would you have them apologise in retrospect? The fans have done absolutely nothing wrong. The club is a none thinking lifeless entity and cannot possibly be blamed for anything. The owners are wholly to blame and they are the ones who should be punished. And finally how do you actually prove that the overspending made them a success? We over-achieved for years both recently and in the past whilst operating on a shoestring. They may well have got promoted without said over spending and it would be hard to prove otherwise.
You can't promote everybody. If we say that the fans of dishonest, cheating clubs should get the benefit of the cheating, then we're also saying that the fans of honest clubs should suffer the negative consequences of their honesty.

It is of course impossible to prove that money bought success on one specific occasion, but the trend does appear to be that clubs with bigger budgets tend to do better.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by houseboy » Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:44 am

dsr wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:12 am
You can't promote everybody. If we say that the fans of dishonest, cheating clubs should get the benefit of the cheating, then we're also saying that the fans of honest clubs should suffer the negative consequences of their honesty.

It is of course impossible to prove that money bought success on one specific occasion, but the trend does appear to be that clubs with bigger budgets tend to do better.
I take your point obviously but as I have said the fans have done no wrong, whatever the owners have done. Wigan is a grey are really because they have never really been massively successful. You can see it more obviously with clubs like City and Chelsea who have bought their success for all to see, but they can also afford the teams of lawyers to firewall them against charges of cheating. I don’t know where it will end though because football ceased to be a sport 30 years ago or so. The day it started to be ‘big business’ the game became a lot poorer for it, morally. Cheating owners. Cheating players. Attempted break always for money purposes. Whatever happened to the working man’s game?

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:01 pm

houseboy wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:44 am
I take your point obviously but as I have said the fans have done no wrong, whatever the owners have done. Wigan is a grey are really because they have never really been massively successful. You can see it more obviously with clubs like City and Chelsea who have bought their success for all to see, but they can also afford the teams of lawyers to firewall them against charges of cheating. I don’t know where it will end though because football ceased to be a sport 30 years ago or so. The day it started to be ‘big business’ the game became a lot poorer for it, morally. Cheating owners. Cheating players. Attempted break always for money purposes. Whatever happened to the working man’s game?
It truly started to turn away from the working man's game when many clubs started paying players under the the table in the 1950's - Jimmy Hill got the maximum wage abolished on that evidence and Johnny Haynes became the first £100 a week player

Clubs like ours had to develop a different approach to keep up financially - it is a model almost every club is trying to deliver now

The dam truly broke when the sharing of gate money was ended in the late 1970's followed by the football league succumbing to pressure from the then big 5 (Arsenal, Everton, Liverpool, Manchester United, Tottenham) to redistribute TV monies in the early 1980's - it seems crazy to think now that all 92 clubs got the same amount up to that point, true equality (I think £24k was the final such payment).

As you suggest the biggest changes came a little over 30 years ago with not just the Premier League but also the Champions League - though I personally believe that another intervention contributed enormously to that - The Taylor Report, the consequences of which led to corporate seating and large hospitality offerings to the infamous 'prawn sandwich brigade'.
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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Big Vinny K » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:21 pm

Unfortunately the disparities in wealth between professional clubs in this country is wider than ever and probably only going to increase further.
Interesting that I was looking at some early odds in the divisions yesterday and Wrexham are ridiculously short to win second division followed by Stockport and Notts County. The disparity within the lower leagues can also be pretty big too even with attempts to cap salaries etc.

The way owners have got round financial regulations is now done on a whole new level now. We are into billions and with very little consequence for the elite league teams who know that at worst they have to pay a fine which is like pocket change to the owners. Only some serious points deduction, divisional demotion, or banning from Europe will ever have a chance of stopping this.

Back in the 1990s when I was involved in finance in the football sector and dealing with clubs like Celtic, Man City, Liverpool and Chelsea this was before financial fair play regulations came in. Without going into the ugly detail seeing what these clubs got up to it’s fair to say they would have all been in breach !!

Not sure there has ever been a time when football has not been run like the Wild West when it comes to finances. They make up their own rules…..and when those rules don’t suit certain clubs they just look for and find ways around them.

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Re: Wigan in serious trouble

Post by Down_Rover » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:34 pm

Im_not_Robbie_Blake wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:49 am
Why write such nonsense? Every town is a football town!
I am sure we can all name one town that is not a football town. Some towns prefer horses

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:37 pm

Big Vinny K wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:21 pm
Not sure there has ever been a time when football has not been run like the Wild West when it comes to finances. They make up their own rules…..and when those rules don’t suit certain clubs they just look for and find ways around them.
I would say there hasn't, there are plenty of scandals in the history of the game and attempts by the authorities to cover up with retrospective actions - though for a long while until the FA gave it up without so much as a whimper in 1983 Rule 34 (introduced during the 1890's when clubs started to become registered businesses) had a lasting impact over clubs as businesses - the only thing that remains now is that owns cannot profit from the sale of the ground if the club shuts down, proceeds have to go to the good of the game (the FA and football charities) - we saw that in action at Bury

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Spijed » Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:20 pm

houseboy wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:44 am
I take your point obviously but as I have said the fans have done no wrong, whatever the owners have done. Wigan is a grey are really because they have never really been massively successful. You can see it more obviously with clubs like City and Chelsea who have bought their success for all to see, but they can also afford the teams of lawyers to firewall them against charges of cheating. I don’t know where it will end though because football ceased to be a sport 30 years ago or so. The day it started to be ‘big business’ the game became a lot poorer for it, morally. Cheating owners. Cheating players. Attempted break always for money purposes. Whatever happened to the working man’s game?
If a club sign a player who is later found ineligible to play for that club under normal circumstances they get points docked for those matches where said player was involved.

Should they be allowed to keep those points as it wasn't the supporters fault.

As for Man City, their supporters are quite happy for the club to bend the FFP rules.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by houseboy » Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:27 pm

Spijed wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:20 pm
If a club sign a player who is later found ineligible to play for that club under normal circumstances they get points docked for those matches where said player was involved.

Should they be allowed to keep those points as it wasn't the supporters fault.

As for Man City, their supporters are quite happy for the club to bend the FFP rules.
All I am saying is there must be other, better punishments. Not just for the fans sake but for competition itself. If you are punishing wrong doing by deducting points then you are rewarding all the other clubs in the division by giving them an unfair advantage possibly out of all proportion.
We could go on for years with this argument but nobody will ever persuade me points deductions are right. Sorry.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:33 pm

If it isn't points deductions then what is it?

Transfer bans?
One out before one in?

Severe wage restrictions?

Relegations?


Everything punishes the aforementioned fans who didn't generally give a toss about said rule breaking.

The powers that be have picked one option and gone with it.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Spijed » Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:39 pm

houseboy wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:27 pm
All I am saying is there must be other, better punishments. Not just for the fans sake but for competition itself. If you are punishing wrong doing by deducting points then you are rewarding all the other clubs in the division by giving them an unfair advantage possibly out of all proportion.
We could go on for years with this argument but nobody will ever persuade me points deductions are right. Sorry.
So you are basically saying that if a club deliberately cheats to win a competition it should never get a ban?

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Lip » Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:43 pm

Spijed wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:39 pm
So you are basically saying that if a club deliberately cheats to win a competition it should never get a ban?
Quite agree about points reduction being schite,it should be automatic relegation straight away.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by keith1879 » Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:19 pm

houseboy wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:27 pm
All I am saying is there must be other, better punishments. Not just for the fans sake but for competition itself. If you are punishing wrong doing by deducting points then you are rewarding all the other clubs in the division by giving them an unfair advantage possibly out of all proportion.
We could go on for years with this argument but nobody will ever persuade me points deductions are right. Sorry.
The point about any competitive sport is that success for one club/team/individual is inevitably (although not obviously) reflected in poorer outcomes for their competitors. The fans of every other club in competition with Wigan have already (in effect) had a potential points deduction because Wigan haven't played by the rules. (They appear to have taken on playing staff when they couldn't afford them). Now of course it is impossible to quantify this in terms of undeserved points gained (or similar) but this argument that the fans of Wigan don't deserve to be punished is fallacious....the fans of their competitors have already been punished by their cheating. The idea of these punishments is to try and discourage such behaviour in the future.
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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by houseboy » Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:48 pm

keith1879 wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:19 pm
The point about any competitive sport is that success for one club/team/individual is inevitably (although not obviously) reflected in poorer outcomes for their competitors. The fans of every other club in competition with Wigan have already (in effect) had a potential points deduction because Wigan haven't played by the rules. (They appear to have taken on playing staff when they couldn't afford them). Now of course it is impossible to quantify this in terms of undeserved points gained (or similar) but this argument that the fans of Wigan don't deserve to be punished is fallacious....the fans of their competitors have already been punished by their cheating. The idea of these punishments is to try and discourage such behaviour in the future.
Ridiculous. How has Wigan being relegated rock bottom punished the fans of other clubs. They are turning cartwheels. The owners should be punished, not the fans. Not the club. As for previous seasons the onus of proof that it directly benefitted the club should be on the league. So what if clubs spend money they haven’t got? It would catch up with them eventually when the bailiffs turn up. The only thing affecting points should be results on the field.
Anyway I’m not going to persuade you nor you me so let’s part as friends and Clarets and ditch the dead end argument.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by DCWat » Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:16 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:15 pm
The average fan doesn't want to know about a clubs finances.
The average fan doesn't care, so long as the club is doing ok.

Brum, Blackburn and Wigan fans never cared about their clubs finances when their respective clubs were lifting a trophy.

They only protested when things went pear shaped and suddenly after years of lording it over rival fans they want sympathy and not to be punished with points deductions etc despite not thinking about the fact their league positions were inflated due to their owners money.
They were taking points off other clubs because of said money and now the point's shouldn't be taken away because of poor financial management of said clubs?

There's not really any other way, unless the League's/FA start enforcing proper financial regulations/controls over clubs and that won't really happen.

Blackburn felt they were going to be returned "to their rightful place" in the PL league when the Venkys turned up, incase we all forgot and they stopped caring about the clubs finances again because they had a new "sugar daddy" who would pump millions into the club etc...
Should we not have celebrated our Championship title?

Plenty of us have been concerned about the takeover and the risk involved, so to say that the average fan doesn’t want to know about the clubs finances or the average fan doesn’t care, I don’t think is true.

A more accurate assessment, in my view, might be that most fans aren’t interested in the intricacies, but want their club to be financially stable and there for the long term.

Yes, there’s a conflict between balancing books and spending to earn success on the pitch and that’s where fans have to hope that whoever is the custodian of the club can find a middle ground. There’s little that your average fan can do about any of it other than raise awareness.

Venky’s took over when they were in the Premier League (they didn’t come in to ‘return them to their rightful place’). They were relegated the following season (rumoured that they didn’t realise teams could be relegated, although that might be made up for shits and giggles).

I’d bet if you looked back on their forums that there would be some concerned voices - maybe a small minority but there would be some. Of course they all wanted to return to the top flight and be successful, just as we do.

Calling out fans of clubs is a bit strange but I do agree that there isn’t really another option other than penalties on the clubs. The problem is that it’s the fans, businesses, employees of said clubs that suffer, not those that caused the issues in the first place.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by bfcmik » Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:30 am

DCWat wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:16 pm
Should we not have celebrated our Championship title?

Plenty of us have been concerned about the takeover and the risk involved, so to say that the average fan doesn’t want to know about the clubs finances or the average fan doesn’t care, I don’t think is true.

A more accurate assessment, in my view, might be that most fans aren’t interested in the intricacies, but want their club to be financially stable and there for the long term.
I believe that most fans wouldn't mind their club breaking a few rules for a chance of glory. Instant gratification is the name of game and you only have to read some of the comments on the transfer threads to realise that Burnley fans are, generally, no different from anyone else in that regard.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Guitargeorge » Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:25 pm

The inevitable HMRC winding up order issued. What now for Wigan?

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:29 pm

Guitargeorge wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:25 pm
The inevitable HMRC winding up order issued. What now for Wigan?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65881568

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:00 pm

Guitargeorge wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:25 pm
The inevitable HMRC winding up order issued. What now for Wigan?
Apparently a billionaire who owns 20% of the rugby league club is a potential buyer. Other than that you have to fear for them.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by keith1879 » Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:15 pm

houseboy wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:48 pm
Ridiculous. How has Wigan being relegated rock bottom punished the fans of other clubs. They are turning cartwheels. The owners should be punished, not the fans. Not the club. As for previous seasons the onus of proof that it directly benefitted the club should be on the league. So what if clubs spend money they haven’t got? It would catch up with them eventually when the bailiffs turn up. The only thing affecting points should be results on the field.
Anyway I’m not going to persuade you nor you me so let’s part as friends and Clarets and ditch the dead end argument.
The whole point is the previous seasons. Wigan won League 1 last season. Given that they obviously cannot afford to be in the Championship you have to wonder whether they could really afford the prize they won last season. I acceot that we aren't going to agree....I'm right though!!!!!!
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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by keith1879 » Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:19 pm

I suppose one should actually look at specific clubs. In 2021/22 Sheffield Wednesday finished 4th and then lost out in the play-offs. You'll never convinceme that Wigan didn't profit at their expense.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:51 pm

keith1879 wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:19 pm
I suppose one should actually look at specific clubs. In 2021/22 Sheffield Wednesday finished 4th and then lost out in the play-offs. You'll never convinceme that Wigan didn't profit at their expense.
They did. They overspent significantly to get that promotion and then couldn’t/didn’t find them in the higher division.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Woodleyclaret » Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:03 pm

I used to go to Springfield Park to watch our village tean Burscough play Wigan in the Cheshire league
Dave Whelans money sustained them for years
Unfortunately his relatives had other plans for Grandads fortune not involving football.
I think it's sad how far Wigan have been mismanaged by dodgy owners to the brink of extinction and hope they survive.
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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Big Vinny K » Tue Jun 13, 2023 6:02 pm

I just do not understand for one minute this punishing the fans debate.

If a club goes beyond its financial means chasing success - like so many have - then of course those fans are smug winners when things are going well. Take a look at the likes of Bolton, Leicester and many others. Bolton cheating under big fat Sam who invented the “undisclosed fee” with a corrupt chairman and so many dodgy deals bringing big superstars and World Cup winners to a team they’d never heard of.

Of course it catches up on them eventually but the success can last for a decade - they leave in their wake unpaid creditors and as happened at Leicester and other clubs people losing their jobs and livelihoods because they were never paid.

Fans are largely oblivious to how their club is managing to pay for all these players and success - or more accurately they probably turn a blind eye.

So when they are eventually found out of course the clubs need punishing - and unfortunately that means the fans suffering too. The club being punished by definition will punish the owners - but personally I think introducing additional punishment for the owners where you can go after their personal wealth / assets would act as further deterrent.

Fans can’t have it both ways. Teams like Wigan have had some unbelievable times in recent years coming from non league to the Premier League and winning the FA Cup. They’ll probably go the way of the likes of Oldham now. But would the fans prefer the ups and downs to years of mediocrity in the lower leagues ?

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:18 pm

Some children are fans.do they deserve to be punished, fair enough with adults you might have a valid point, children aren't in control & aren't consciously aware of the ramifications irresponsible management brings. We often don't think of the younger 1s because they aren't spending money of the same magnitude, money aside, feelings & emotions matter & some of them children will grow up & also have children & ultimately generations could miss out through no fault of their own.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by evensteadiereddie » Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:33 pm

Big Vinny is completely correct.


I'm not entirely sure what the ages of supporters has to do with a club facing sanctions or not.
All fans will be disappointed but hey, that's the price you pay for the good times that were achieved by breaking the rules.

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Re: Wigan Points Deduction

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:38 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:33 pm
Big Vinny is completely correct.


I'm not entirely sure what the ages of supporters has to do with a club facing sanctions or not.
All fans will be disappointed but hey, that's the price you pay for the good times that were achieved by breaking the rules.
You are the type of person who obviously callously disregards children's feelngs, it comes as no surprise.

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