Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

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KateR
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Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by KateR » Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:32 pm

I feel maximizing hydro power is one thing that can be looked at and completed in the knowledge of success. Yet even after decades of discussions and many becoming believers in the requirement to reduce fossil fuels there is very little in the Gov knowledge and laws that helps companies improve on surely something we all see coming in the future. Trust me the UK is not alone and I have high levels of frustrations with multiple governments at federal and local level.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-65015217

Bosscat
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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by Bosscat » Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:44 pm

They put an "Archimedes Screw" Hydro Electric Turbine in the River Ribble at Settle quite a few years ago now at the Wier by the School ... has paid for its self quite easily I believe πŸ™‚
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KateR
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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by KateR » Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:07 pm

Bosscat wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:44 pm
They put an "Archimedes Screw" Hydro Electric Turbine in the River Ribble at Settle quite a few years ago now at the Wier by the School ... has paid for its self quite easily I believe πŸ™‚
quite a lot of these around and would be very beneficial to anyone living by the edge of a stream/river, just IMO of course

Bosscat
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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by Bosscat » Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:15 pm

KateR wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:07 pm
quite a lot of these around and would be very beneficial to anyone living by the edge of a stream/river, just IMO of course
Having done quite a few River cruises around Europe, you see a lot of Hydrolelectric set ups at the Lock systems ... not surprising when you see the size and height of the locks (some up to 90 ft deep on the Danube) so a lot of water being held back on the River ... fascinating engineering for the transfer of boats up and downstream ... making our canal locks look weeny in comparison.
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ClaretLoup
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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by ClaretLoup » Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:22 pm

I have been to Electric Mountain in North Wales which is the same type of Hydro Power plant ( pumped storage) as the proposed project. The water is pumped up to a reservoir at night when demand is low then released during peak hours. Simples.

There are reasons there are not a lot more of them, one being that it is a large capital outlay over a very protracted construction period and I am pretty sure that since de-nationalisation of power generation and supply there has been no additional build of this type of plant. Another is that because of their nature they are likely to be built in an AONB and will meet pretty stiff resistance by objectors, due to SSIs and the effect on wildlife also understandably because of the scale of any feasible project and the disruption caused by the building process itself.

It's interesting that SSE now consider it financially viable enough to go ahead.

Also germaine to this topic is a little snippet I read in the paper at the weekend related to this which suggested that there would be more of these type of projects but they were held back because of the difficulty of connecting to the Grid, presumably caused by the operator of the grid (?) .

Anyone know more about this issue as it seems an odd thing to be holding such a vital development back?
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Bosscat
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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by Bosscat » Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:33 pm

ClaretLoup wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:22 pm
I have been to Electric Mountain in North Wales which is the same type of Hydro Power plant ( pumped storage) as the proposed project. The water is pumped up to a reservoir at night when demand is low then released during peak hours. Simples.

There are reasons there are not a lot more of them, one being that it is a large capital outlay over a very protracted construction period and I am pretty sure that since de-nationalisation of power generation and supply there has been no additional build of this type of plant. Another is that because of their nature they are likely to be built in an AONB and will meet pretty stiff resistance by objectors, due to SSIs and the effect on wildlife also understandably because of the scale of any feasible project and the disruption caused by the building process itself.

It's interesting that SSE now consider it financially viable enough to go ahead.

Also germaine to this topic is a little snippet I read in the paper at the weekend related to this which suggested that there would be more of these type of projects but they were held back because of the difficulty of connecting to the Grid, presumably caused by the operator of the grid (?) .

Anyone know more about this issue as it seems an odd thing to be holding such a vital development back?
Fascinating place ... also been there Claretloup πŸ‘

Paul Waine
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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by Paul Waine » Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:09 pm

ClaretLoup wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:22 pm
I have been to Electric Mountain in North Wales which is the same type of Hydro Power plant ( pumped storage) as the proposed project. The water is pumped up to a reservoir at night when demand is low then released during peak hours. Simples.

There are reasons there are not a lot more of them, one being that it is a large capital outlay over a very protracted construction period and I am pretty sure that since de-nationalisation of power generation and supply there has been no additional build of this type of plant. Another is that because of their nature they are likely to be built in an AONB and will meet pretty stiff resistance by objectors, due to SSIs and the effect on wildlife also understandably because of the scale of any feasible project and the disruption caused by the building process itself.

It's interesting that SSE now consider it financially viable enough to go ahead.

Also germaine to this topic is a little snippet I read in the paper at the weekend related to this which suggested that there would be more of these type of projects but they were held back because of the difficulty of connecting to the Grid, presumably caused by the operator of the grid (?) .

Anyone know more about this issue as it seems an odd thing to be holding such a vital development back?
Way back, somewhere around mid-1990s, the firm I was with at the time did a "virtual pumped storage" deal with the owners of Dinorwig Power Station. (It's changed hands a few times in the years since). The nature of the deal was swapping the cashflows of baseload, 24 x 7 power output for the peak prices that a pumped storage unit could capture. I understand Dinorwig needs to pump water to the top reservoir for 7 hours and can then generate for 5 hours. These were the guys who would be dispatched, i.e. told to generate in the ad breaks in Coronation Street back when Coronation Street was only on 2 or 3 times a week and had a big audience. Similarly, half-time in the FA Cup Final, 3pm kick-off, when there were very few live games on tv.# and we'd all put the kettle on for a cup of tea.

I don't think privatisation of power sector had anything to do with building new pump storage generators, the country needs very few of these "peak of the peak" systems. Labour government of 1997 was keen on keeping coal generating plants open for a time to keep NUM coal miners in work. They put a block on building new gas fired plants - gas was very, very, cheap then. Similarly, building new nuclear plants was "kicked into the very long grass." Then Kyoto happened and, slowly, the balance shifted towards renewables.

Grid connections and grid capacity to handle new connections is a big challenge. Again, way back, if you had the chance to build a new power station getting rights to build it where the grid capacity existed to connect new generation was what turned a "nice idea" it a viable project.

Quite rightly, today, the priority is de-carbonising the economy, so all renewable generation will be favoured over non-renewable/fossil fuels, but grid connections remain a constraint. I'm not 100% certain, but I think we all pay for the grid connections through our standing charges.

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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by Tricky Trevor » Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:17 pm

Bosscat wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:15 pm
Having done quite a few River cruises around Europe, you see a lot of Hydrolelectric set ups at the Lock systems ... not surprising when you see the size and height of the locks (some up to 90 ft deep on the Danube) so a lot of water being held back on the River ... fascinating engineering for the transfer of boats up and downstream ... making our canal locks look weeny in comparison.
Got the train from Zagreb to Ljubljana last year. Followed a river all the journey and these seemed to be every 20 miles or so.

Bosscat
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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by Bosscat » Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:43 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:17 pm
Got the train from Zagreb to Ljubljana last year. Followed a river all the journey and these seemed to be every 20 miles or so.
Along the "Sava" river interesting journey T T πŸ‘

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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by The Centre Spot » Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:09 pm

Rivers continuously flow, even flour mills many years ago had the sense to exploit this power source.
How many mini turbines could generate power day and night, storing the excess in batteries to satisfy peak demand?
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Bullabill
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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by Bullabill » Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:36 pm

ClaretLoup wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:22 pm

......... to be built in an AONB ........ due to SSIs and the ........
It's interesting that SSE now .........

WTF?

Bosscat
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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by Bosscat » Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:51 pm

Bullabill wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:36 pm
WTF?
AONB - Area of outstanding natural beauty
SSI -Scottish Statutary Instrument ?
SSE - Scottish and Southern Electricity

Bosscat
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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by Bosscat » Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:53 pm

The Centre Spot wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:09 pm
Rivers continuously flow, even flour mills many years ago had the sense to exploit this power source.
How many mini turbines could generate power day and night, storing the excess in batteries to satisfy peak demand?
One of the reasons Papermills built in river valleys πŸ™‚

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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by ClaretLoup » Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:56 pm

Several European countries have had problems last summer with their hydro electric generation due to low water levels in waterways.

Hipper
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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by Hipper » Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:19 am

The Centre Spot wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:09 pm
Rivers continuously flow, even flour mills many years ago had the sense to exploit this power source.
How many mini turbines could generate power day and night, storing the excess in batteries to satisfy peak demand?
Rivers do not continually flow. They depend on a water source or sources - melting glaciers, precipitation on higher grounds. With global warning and therefore climate change such things will no longer be guaranteed. I hope the authors of this proposal and all others relying on water have considered this.

KateR
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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by KateR » Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:03 pm

Hipper wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:19 am
Rivers do not continually flow. They depend on a water source or sources - melting glaciers, precipitation on higher grounds. With global warning and therefore climate change such things will no longer be guaranteed. I hope the authors of this proposal and all others relying on water have considered this.
it's free flow from the top, through generators to the bottom level, then it's pumped back up again during low cost times, night most likely so it's not going to need a lot of water to keep the water levels where you need them, so yes, water source has been considered.

Paul Waine
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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:13 pm

ClaretLoup wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:56 pm
Several European countries have had problems last summer with their hydro electric generation due to low water levels in waterways.
France has had problems a few times over the past 10 years or so. When there's not a lot of rain river levels run lower and a significant number of France's nuclear plants have to be shut down, because their cooling systems rely on water from the rivers.

Norway gets virtually all of their electricity from hydro, in this case almost all "run of river. Norway, in early 1990s was also the first country to introduce electricity trading. Nord Pool started trading in 1995, the following winter was dry, so there wasn't as much snow as usual, the dry weather continued into early summer 1996. Electricity prices rose dramatically, a number of the electricity companies, most, if not all, owned by the towns and villages where the electricity was generated, went bust. A tough introduction for Nord Pool. However, looking at their website today their electricity trading covers most of Europe.

Low water levels can also impact petrol and diesel prices. In this case, barges (large ones, not the things we might see on Leeds-Liverpool canal) that transport oil products from Rotterdam and other ports upstream to Germany etc couldn't travel because they would ground in areas of very shallow water.

It can also work the other way. If there's a lot of rain (or snow melt) water levels can rise high and river traffic can be disrupted because there is insufficient clearance for barges to pass under (some of) the bridges.

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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by BleedingClaret » Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:16 pm

I thought this was knocking down Deadwood and planting something worthwhile

Bosscat
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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by Bosscat » Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:32 pm

BleedingClaret wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:16 pm
I thought this was knocking down Deadwood and planting something worthwhile
Trees πŸ€”
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The Centre Spot
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Re: Hopefully the Gov go ahead with this "Green Project"

Post by The Centre Spot » Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:39 pm

Hipper wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:19 am
Rivers do not continually flow....'
According to national geographic:
A river is a ribbon-like body of water that flows downhill from the force of gravity. A river can be wide and deep, or shallow enough for a person to wade across.

So rivers do continuously flow. If there's no water then it's not a river. :)

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