Gary Lineker

[ClaretPete001]

The thought process that seems to be that transsexuals are either post-op or intact heterosexual males (and a latter suggestion that a large enough subset of these are "predators" for it to be a large concern) shows what your view is.

I just find the whole thing pretty weird. Not so much the JK Rowling stance but all of the blokes who are so keen to jump on this as an erosion of women's rights who have been notably conspicuous on other debates on women's rights.

As far as i can see android did not say that...

The point made was that opinions change depending upon how the facts are presented.

[CoolClaret]

I think Starmer's already blown any reputation he might have had with the trans farce and the BLM stance. Particularly with the voters he needed to win back - those blue collar workers aren't going to swing in big enough numbers for him.

However, they won't necessary stick with the Conservatives, for whom many of them were first time voters.

Viewing Johnson as "a clown" is the trap that all his opponents fell into. He was a serious politician when it came to campaigning and if the Conservatives had stuck with him he'd slay Starmer.

All IMO of course.

I think Starmer's on course to win by default and the interesting question will be if the Conservatives stick with Sunak or twist. I'd very much like to see Kemi Badenoch in the hot seat. She's easily the most impressive front bench politician in the Conservatives right now.

Kemi Badenoch is a complete and utter muppet

[Rowls]

Kemi Badenoch is a complete and utter muppet

YMMV

I think she's a highly talented and competent individual.

She came across very well in the leadership election and she's proving formidable in cabinet. The was instrumental in blocking the Scots self-ID law and has been successful in negotiating the recent CPTPP trade deal.

[Rumbletonk]

I can't be bothered to read all 11 pages but Is Gary Lineker a transexual?

[aggi]

As far as i can see android did not say that...

The point made was that opinions change depending upon how the facts are presented.

He did. The choice of words was entirely his, not lifted from the article which used completely different terms.

[Billy Balfour]

The economy will continue to stagnate until we have a proper reforming government who take the necessary measures to reduce taxation and the size of the state.

Yeah, that was tried recently by a couple of mates of yours.

_128074029_c204680b-6f2c-4dfd-97ed-8af944fbf6aa.jpg.jpg (95.64 KiB) Viewed 861 times

[SocialistClaret]

No way does that data say that ‘45% of trans school kids attempt to take their own life because they have been denied gender reassignment surgery’

Jesus F Christ. Who's talking about surgery? You've completely made that up as part of my point. Literally never did i mention gender reassignment surgery for school kids, either as treatment or as a cause of suicide.

Stop making up your own reality.

[CoolClaret]

YMMV

I think she's a highly talented and competent individual.

She came across very well in the leadership election and she's proving formidable in cabinet. The was instrumental in blocking the Scots self-ID law and has been successful in negotiating the recent CPTPP trade deal.

Even if she was an exceptional candidate and the leader of the Tories I can't see swathes of BoJo voters from the 'red wall' voting for her - probably due to covert racism/discrimination

[SocialistClaret]

Nothing scientific about gender ideology.

How very post-gender of you.

[CoolClaret]

Jesus F Christ. Who's talking about surgery? You've completely made that up as part of my point. Literally never did i mention gender reassignment surgery for school kids, either as treatment or as a cause of suicide.

Stop making up your own reality.

Surgery/Treatment/care whatever*

- the data nowhere suggests that it's anything to do with that. It suggests it's due to bullying

You're the only one creating a reality and trying to justify your beliefs based on skewing data

[RVclaret]

I can't be bothered to read all 11 pages but Is Gary Lineker a transexual?

[SocialistClaret]

You can't have a conversation with these people when they are so divorced from reality, so hooked in their transphobic bubble that they think the only way to treat children for gender dysphoria is to perform cosmetic surgery or to make them infertile.

No amount of truth will fix their poisoned minds.

For those of you who aren't this far gone, no one is suggesting anything that would lead to anything this user is suggesting. Gender affirming care for children isn't the same as gender reassignment surgery, and is entirely reversible.
What isn't reversible so easily is forcing children to go through a traumatic hormone change that they don't want to go through because it is does not match their gender. It's fricking evil.

So you're happy for children to be maimed and become infertile just in case they happen to feel suicidal when they're older? How many of the wider population have felt suicidal at any given time, I'd imagine a lot. How about fix the reason they feel so bad rather than destroying their body.

[SocialistClaret]

Surgery/Treatment/care whatever*

- the data nowhere suggests that it's anything to do with that. It suggests it's due to bullying

You're the only one creating a reality and trying to justify your beliefs based on skewing data

Bullying is ONE of the reasons. Why do you think they're being bullied, CoolClaret?

You're one of those bullies, btw. You're part of the problem causing these kids to off themselves. Denying the reality of their existence is one of the more harmful ways to harm someone. That's how it is for all trans kids in this society, and there are lots of people like yourself who are causing harm to them.

[CoolClaret]

Bullying is ONE of the reasons. Why do you think they're being bullied, CoolClaret?

You're one of those bullies, btw. You're part of the problem causing these kids to off themselves. Denying the reality of their existence is one of the more harmful ways to harm someone. That's how it is for all trans kids in this society, and there are lots of people like yourself who are causing harm to them.

Kids tend to get bullied when they're 'different' - obvious differences, it's not necessarily correct or fair but it's what happens in real life.
You can educate kids on various issues and hope that it leads to prevention but only if the education is based on reality and truths.

I'm suggesting that some of the issues that trans advocate for isn't an exact settled science like they so desperately claim that it is - it's all very new.

Aye of course I am. Kids are killing themselves because CoolClaret thinks that performing life altering surgery on kids/teens isnt adhering to the hippocratic oath.

You're boring and inflammatory like most die hard leftists. All for supporting people needing and getting the correct care that they need - just not into creating false realities to fit my world view.

[Rowls]

Yeah, that was tried recently by a couple of mates of yours.

There is a distinction between something not working because it wasn't implemented properly and something not working because the idea is fundamentally flawed.

Read the obituaries of Nigel Lawson where he talks about the need to bring inflation under control before implementing tax cuts and how tax cuts should not be funded by borrowing.

Taxes and government spending are higher than they've been since WWII. We'll continue to suffer anaemic growth and a stagnating economy until we bring them under control.

[Corky]

I can't be bothered to read all 11 pages but Is Gary Lineker a transexual?

Only every other Friday.

[ClaretPete001]

He did. The choice of words was entirely his, not lifted from the article which used completely different terms.

The survey used the terms 'prior to Gender re-alignment surgery' or similar and described the change in perception once people realised this..

I don't think it is generous debate to infer from that anything other than it was a point about changing perceptions dependent upon characterisation.

That's the whole point about a debate that constantly makes ad hominem points about someone trying to describe a survey on a football forum.

[CoolClaret]

Gender affirming care for children isn't the same as gender reassignment surgery, and is entirely reversible.

No it isn't

Stop sugar-coating the truth, 'gender affirming care' is frigging puberty blockers.

Stop pretending like you can mess with hormones without having negative ramifications.

[SocialistClaret]

Kids tend to get bullied when they're 'different' - obvious differences, it's not necessarily correct or fair but it's what happens in real life.
You can educate kids on various issues and hope that it leads to prevention but only if the education is based on reality and truths.

I'm suggesting that some of the issues that trans advocate for isn't an exact settled science like they so desperately claim that it is - it's all very new.

Aye of course I am. Kids are killing themselves because CoolClaret thinks that performing life altering surgery on kids/teens isnt adhering to the hippocratic oath.

You're boring and inflammatory like most die hard leftists. All for supporting people needing and getting the correct care that they need - just not into creating false realities to fit my world view.

You can accuse me of being inflammatory all you like. I'm the one arguing in favour of giving children the healthcare they need to reduce the likelihood that they'll try to kill themselves. You have a problem with us doing that. I'd argue that it's you who is being inflammatory and that all i'm doing is boiling our respective arguments down to the essential facts in a desperate attempt to get you to see just how absolutely fkd up your position is.

I've failed to draw out any kind of humanity and empathy for these kids from you. At this point I question its existence.

[CoolClaret]

I'm the one arguing in favour of giving children the healthcare they need to reduce the likelihood that they'll try to kill themselves.

I'm arguing that isn't the sole defining reason that they attempt to kill themselves and that the science behind all this is far from settled and objective.

Till then, we are playing with things that we don't fully understand.

Bullying isn't good and leads to a lot of suicide attempts across countless types of children

[evensteadiereddie]

Partly leads to it, agreed.

[daveisaclaret]

And in the midst of all this bickering, the EHRC is going to recommend to Kemi Badenoch that all trans rights provided by the Equality Act 2010 are stripped out.

I am sure the people who only have reasonable concerns about women's sports and children transitioning will be just as disgusted by this as the people they are currently arguing with.

[SocialistClaret]

No it isn't

Stop sugar-coating the truth, 'gender affirming care' is frigging puberty blockers.

Stop pretending like you can mess with hormones without having negative ramifications.

Gender affirming care SOMETIMES involves puberty blockers. Puberty blockers are reversible.
Gender affirming care ALSO includes simply using their preferred pronouns, or allowing them to dress in gendered clothing as they prefer. I can't be the first person to explain this to you.

Yes, as with ALL medical treatments at first, long-term effects of their use aren't known. This is literally true of every treatment we've ever invented when we started using it. That doesn't stop us using it. But what we do is we measure the known effects of not giving treatment versus the known and unknown benefits/effects of giving treatment and we make a judgement. When applied badly the argument that we don't know the long term effects of a treatment would stop us treating, curing or vaccinating against all kinds of awful illnesses so why are you opposed to treatment here?

I'll tell you why, it's because you've been radicalised by anti-trans extremism and they've used children to turn you against the medicine and non-medical care used to treat them.

[CoolClaret]

Gender affirming care SOMETIMES involves puberty blockers. Puberty blockers are reversible.
Gender affirming care ALSO includes simply using their preferred pronouns, or allowing them to dress in gendered clothing as they prefer. I can't be the first person to explain this to you.

Yes, as with ALL medical treatments at first, long-term effects of their use aren't known. This is literally true of every treatment we've ever invented when we started using it. That doesn't stop us using it. But what we do is we measure the known effects of not giving treatment versus the known and unknown benefits/effects of giving treatment and we make a judgement. When applied badly the argument that we don't know the long term effects of a treatment would stop us treating, curing or vaccinating against all kinds of awful illnesses so why are you opposed to treatment here?

I'll tell you why, it's because you've been radicalised by anti-trans extremism and they've used children to turn you against the medicine and non-medical care used to treat them.

Stop equating puberty blockers to something as trivial as taking aspirin. Literally no comparison

[SocialistClaret]

Stop equating puberty blockers to something as trivial as taking aspirin. Literally no comparison

Step 1 - fabricate an argument not made in order to be angry about it
Step 2 - get angry about it

This is you right now any time you read my posts. You need to stop making things up, because you keep getting angry about it and that'll raise your blood pressure.
Good news though, there's medication for it.
Bad news, I don't know the long-term effects of using it.
I guess you'll just have to have a heart attack instead because what if the medicine ends up being harmful in some way we haven't discovered yet?

[aggi]

The survey used the terms 'prior to Gender re-alignment surgery' or similar and described the change in perception once people realised this..

I don't think it is generous debate to infer from that anything other than it was a point about changing perceptions dependent upon characterisation.

That's the whole point about a debate that constantly makes ad hominem points about someone trying to describe a survey on a football forum.

So a different description with a different meaning to "intact hetrosexual males". There was no need in particular for android to insert "hetrosexual" in there but the scare tactic doesn't work too well without it (hence my original comment in terms of debating in good faith). Given how much android talks about this topic, and his attempt to justify it, I find it very difficult to believe it was an inadvertent addition.

[CoolClaret]

Step 1 - fabricate an argument not made in order to be angry about it
Step 2 - get angry about it

This is you right now any time you read my posts. You need to stop making things up, because you keep getting angry about it and that'll raise your blood pressure.
Good news though, there's medication for it.
Bad news, I don't know the long-term effects of using it.
I guess you'll just have to have a heart attack instead because what if the medicine ends up being harmful in some way we haven't discovered yet?

You're downplaying puberty blockers and equating it to the same as any kind of medication when it's obvious that it isn't

You're extremely disingenuous and and are a bit of a loon tbh. I hope that you don't have any kids that suffer with gender dysphoria because I dread to think what catastrophic decisions you'd encourage them to make

[SocialistClaret]

You're downplaying puberty blockers and equating it to the same as any kind of medication when it's obvious that it isn't

You're extremely disingenuous and and are a bit of a loon tbh. I hope that you don't have any kids that suffer with gender dysphoria because I dread to think what catastrophic decisions you'd encourage them to make

I'm not downplaying puberty blockers. If i had downplayed them then you'd have produced a quote that shows me downplaying them.

FYI i think they're an excellent alternative to non-reversible surgery for children who without them would be forced into making a choice between going through a traumatic and unwelcome hormone change contrary to their actual gender, or a surgery that they would be unable to reverse should they turn out to be among the only 1% of people you seem to give a flying **** about.

[CoolClaret]

I'm not downplaying puberty blockers. If i had downplayed them then you'd have produced a quote that shows me downplaying them.

FYI i think they're an excellent alternative to non-reversible surgery for children who without them would be forced into making a choice between going through a traumatic and unwelcome hormone change contrary to their actual gender, or a surgery that they would be unable to reverse should they turn out to be among the only 1% of people you seem to give a flying **** about.

1% from a HUGE NUMBER of 8,000 patients based over a couple of years not decades. Hardly settled Science but you don't seem to accept that.

[JohnMcGreal]

I'd have to agree with you there but a Labour government will look to spend and tax even more.

The economy will continue to stagnate.

The economy will continue to stagnate because of the brain dead economic and foreign policy that both main parties are fully committed to; carrying on with no EU membership, single market membership, customs union, freedom of movement.

Until that is addressed we will continue to be at a major disadvantage wtih our competitors, the economy will continue to struggle, our currency will continue to be weak forcing us to import inflation and living standards will continue to suffer.