Gary Lineker

[Benson]

Bigbopper gets rounded on by the boards left wing whoppers.

[Bigbopper]

Bigbopper falls for big whoppers.

So women losing the right to fair competition in sport, to losing the right to single sex changing rooms in sport or otherwise is a big whopper??

[dsr]

How about we properly fund staffing in prisons so that prisoners are safe?

Or we could continue with pretending that prisoner safety and comfort has been a long-term concern among a certain political wing, and that it's not just a proxy to justify hate and discrimination against trans people.

What say you? Should we properly fund our prison system so that convicted criminals can feel safe and secure? I'm in favour.

Even if you are proposing every prisoner has his or her own cell, that's going to take time. What do we do with the trans woman rapist in the meantime, if it can't be discussed? Discussion or no, the decision has to be made, and better made with discussion than without.

[SocialistClaret]

Even if you are proposing every prisoner has his or her own cell, that's going to take time. What do we do with the trans woman rapist in the meantime, if it can't be discussed? Discussion or no, the decision has to be made, and better made with discussion than without.

I don't see why they need to be treated any differently to cis rapists. What do we do with rapists?

The people bringing up this argument never seem to have a problem with cis gay male/female rapists being housed in gender specific prisons.

You're being manipulated, dsr. We all are. When things are going poorly in the world the rich and powerful ALWAYS deflect your attention towards a minority. They way to know that's happening here is to ask yourself how many trans people are in prison, or going to prison, for rape. And when you find that number ask yourself why it is such a large concern in the media you choose to consume.

There are other ways to identify if you're the victim of a bullshit moral panic, but this seems like an easy one.

[aggi]

Even if you are proposing every prisoner has his or her own cell, that's going to take time. What do we do with the trans woman rapist in the meantime, if it can't be discussed? Discussion or no, the decision has to be made, and better made with discussion than without.

The thing is, it's just a massively small issue for the amount of focus and discussion and the level of divisiveness it whips up.

And conveniently we have a very recent example of interest in a niche issue being whipped up and being used as a wedge to benefit political parties rather than the country and how that is currently panning out.

[SocialistClaret]

So women losing the right to fair competition in sport, to losing the right to single sex changing rooms in sport or otherwise is a big whopper??

Why are you not concerned about trans men using male changing rooms? Why is it only trans women that bother you?

[SocialistClaret]

And what do you think is going to happen when trans men start walking into female gendered changing rooms?

[Rowls]

Why are you not concerned about trans men using male changing rooms? Why is it only trans women that bother you?

The reason for the one-way concern in these rare (but real) circumstances is the lack of threat that the average trans-man poses to a real man.

[AlargeClaret]

Why are you not concerned about trans men using male changing rooms? Why is it only trans women that bother you?

Because if a woman wants to dress up as a bloke and in the (surely ?) extremely rare case they use a male ( born with a c0ck) changing room there’s hardly likely to be a danger to any blokes . Well, unless their mental state ensues that they arrive with semi automatic weapons ….

[AlargeClaret]

Fact is ,the absolute 100% banning across all **sports ensuring that you can only compete against your own “ birth gender “ is almost impossible to argue against, even the real crazies surely have to concede . Hopefully all sports bodies will quickly concur . **It must be noted though ,that sports like snooker/darts etc that have zero physical aspect should be exempt.

[Taffy on the wing]

Gary Lineker is a Trans Woman now?........

[evensteadiereddie]

Bigbopper gets rounded on by the boards left wing whoppers.

And by just about everybody else and quite rightly too.

[Bigbopper]

By Swim England.Seems like sport is finally coming to its senses unlike some of the people on here.

All of Swim England’s disciplines – swimming, artistic swimming, diving and water polo – will see a new ‘open’ category introduced, which will be for athletes with a birth sex of male, trans or non-binary competitors.

Only athletes who have declared a birth sex of female will compete in the ‘female’ category.

[ClaretPete001]

I don't see why they need to be treated any differently to cis rapists. What do we do with rapists?

The people bringing up this argument never seem to have a problem with cis gay male/female rapists being housed in gender specific prisons.

You're being manipulated, dsr. We all are. When things are going poorly in the world the rich and powerful ALWAYS deflect your attention towards a minority. They way to know that's happening here is to ask yourself how many trans people are in prison, or going to prison, for rape. And when you find that number ask yourself why it is such a large concern in the media you choose to consume.

There are other ways to identify if you're the victim of a bullshit moral panic, but this seems like an easy one.

It's big news because a large number of feminists and high profile celebrities believe that this is just another crass attempt by man to usurp female power and invade female spaces.

[android]

Who is giving up rights by allowing trans people to exist in the world just like everyone else?

It's a lie you've fallen for that the expansion of rights to a minority means removal of rights from the majority. It's not zero sum. Stop falling for it.

What rights would you like trans people to have that they do not have? I don't mean the silly right to exist nonsense (no-one is arguing that), I mean actual rights.

Do you think male born people with a penis have the right to get naked in female communal changing rooms? If so, are you seriously suggesting that does not impact the privacy, dignity and sense of safety of women and girls?

Do you think any male who identifies as trans has the right to participate in the female category in sports? And if so, that does not effect the right of women and girls to have a female only category?

Where are the lies here?

[android]

Lots of interesting polls on the following link, but the one that stood out to me was :-


Women are more likely than men to support greater transgender rights across all questions

Across the board, women are more likely than men to support greater transgender rights.

In fact, the only transgender issue on which men tend to be supportive is that people should be able to socially identify as a different gender to the one they had recorded at birth, by 47% to 33% (a net score of +14). While this may be the most pro-trans stance men take, it is also the one on which they are farthest behind women. More than six in ten women (63%) say people should be able to identify as another gender socially, compared to only 18% who disagree, giving a net score of +45.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/art ... der-rights

...so maybe you should stop claiming to speak for women, when it appears that, on the whole, women are more accepting of trans people than men.

Shame about the last line, as that might be first time you have actually engaged with me with something of interest and no insults - well done! Of course I am not claiming to speak for all women. I am trying to amplify the concerns of women who have been directly affected. An erosion of women's rights might not interest some women for a host of reasons and each to their own.

I have seen a similar survey and it just goes to show how much nicer women are than men! No surprise that women generally are more sympathetic to trans people. It's nearly always men who cause the problems around the world. Which kind of takes us back to why it is so important to protect women's rights.

The more interesting results of that men v women opinion survey come towards the end. Once it is made clear that most trans women are fully intact heterosexual males the results shift significantly.

[Greenmile]

....Once it is made clear that most trans women are fully intact heterosexual males...

I don't know where you got this from, but it wasn't my link, which references gender reassignment surgery, but makes no mention whatsoever of sexuality.

[Greenmile]

...I have seen a similar survey and it just goes to show how much nicer women are than men! No surprise that women generally are more sympathetic to trans people. It's nearly always men who cause the problems around the world.

This apppears to be an admission that sympathy (although I think you mean empathy) to trans people is a "nice" trait, and that a lack of such empathy is the cause of problems around the world - on that we can agree.

[android]

I don't know where you got this from, but it wasn't my link, which references gender reassignment surgery, but makes no mention whatsoever of sexuality.

Yes that's fine if your survey indicated the intactness not the sexuality. And I also probably should have said many rather than most but my clumsily made point was meant to be that when the GRR came in for example, it was clearly aimed at that small number of people who go down the surgery route and that is who people tended to have in mind in terms of trans women. Whereas now the point is that more people are realising that many trans women are intact heterosexual males (and some of those claim to be lesbians hence the greater issue for lesbians).

[android]

This apppears to be an admission that sympathy (although I think you mean empathy) to trans people is a "nice" trait, and that a lack of such empathy is the cause of problems around the world - on that we can agree.

No idea why you call it and "admission" but empathy is good let's agree for a change.

[Damo]

I bet even Orwell would rub his eyes in disbelief that some day, a portion of society could be tricked into thinking that allowing men into women only spaces constitutes equality

[Lancasterclaret]

Can someone point out where someone has said allowing men into womens spaces is okay?

I mean, if its a culture war based on getting people to panic about stuff like that then I reckon it ain't going to work

[Lancasterclaret]

https://twitter.com/krishgm/status/1642980657822416899

This is the sort of stuff you should be worried about and wonder how its got to this, rather than this bathroom stuff you are all obsessed with

[dsr]

Why are you not concerned about trans men using male changing rooms? Why is it only trans women that bother you?

It is a widespread thing in society as a whole that violence and sexual assault and rape by men on women gets far more attention than violence and sexual assault and rape by women on men. I'm not the only one who shares that concern, hence the reason there are more women's refuges than men's refuges, and so on. I don't have stats, but doesn't it seem intuitive that people with penises commit more sexual crime than people without?

Be that as it may, it isn't so much trans women in women's changing rooms that is concerning. It's men, evil men, who could and would pretend to be trans women. I don't think we can trust potential rapists to always tell the truth.

[Lancasterclaret]

It is a widespread thing in society as a whole that violence and sexual assault and rape by men on women gets far more attention than violence and sexual assault and rape by women on men. I'm not the only one who shares that concern, hence the reason there are more women's refuges than men's refuges, and so on. I don't have stats, but doesn't it seem intuitive that people with penises commit more sexual crime than people without?

Be that as it may, it isn't so much trans women in women's changing rooms that is concerning. It's men, evil men, who could and would pretend to be trans women. I don't think we can trust potential rapists to always tell the truth.

Its a culture war to avoid talking about inflation, NHS waiting list, sewage in the rivers, a stagnant economy, falling apart infrastructure etc etc etc

Its quite, quite blatant, and its also going to back fire massively

[Lancasterclaret]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65171795

Amount of money for social care reform halved

But yeah, lets talk about those poor people on the boats and the trans people bathroom thingy

[Jakubclaret]

Plenty of good things are happening but if you only want to focus on negativity in life that's exactly what you'll get.

[CrisyPbacon]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65171795

Amount of money for social care reform halved

But yeah, lets talk about those poor people on the boats and the trans people bathroom thingy

So the care reform appears to be being cut by £250m , the poor boat people are costing above £6m a day in hotel bills.I wonder if the 2 are connected.

[android]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65171795

Amount of money for social care reform halved

But yeah, lets talk about those poor people on the boats and the trans people bathroom thingy

It will be a great comfort to so many women that Lancaster Claret has decreed that they do not need to worry their pretty little heads over the trans people bathroom thingy.

The same decree is available for the:
- prisons thingy
- or the sports thingy
- or the hospitals thingy
- or the change in definition of same-sex attraction thingy to exclude the sex thingy (go figure)
- or the medicalisation of gay and autistic children thingy (leading in too many cases to that sterilisation thingy)
- or the discrimination, harassment and increasing violence against women who dare to express their knowledge that sex is real thingy
- or the many, many women who are afraid to speak up because of the aforementioned thingy

At some point (it is starting to happen thanks mainly to some extremely courageous and brilliant women) people are going to wake up to the reality of what is being demanded in the name of unbending, unquestioning support of gender identity ideology.

[aggi]

Shame about the last line, as that might be first time you have actually engaged with me with something of interest and no insults - well done! Of course I am not claiming to speak for all women. I am trying to amplify the concerns of women who have been directly affected. An erosion of women's rights might not interest some women for a host of reasons and each to their own.

I have seen a similar survey and it just goes to show how much nicer women are than men! No surprise that women generally are more sympathetic to trans people. It's nearly always men who cause the problems around the world. Which kind of takes us back to why it is so important to protect women's rights.

The more interesting results of that men v women opinion survey come towards the end. Once it is made clear that most trans women are fully intact heterosexual males the results shift significantly.

When you are occasionally thinking that Android is debating in good faith then stuff like this gives a reality check as to what he really thinks.

[tiger76]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65171795

Amount of money for social care reform halved

But yeah, lets talk about those poor people on the boats and the trans people bathroom thingy

Social care is a demographic ticking timebomb which numerous governments have failed to grasp, solve this and it won't half help clear the NHS backlog. which in turn could well mean many of those folks presently unable to work due to long term ailments might in time be able to return to the workplace, as ever there is no joined up thinking applied.

An ageing population with less people of working age isn't aiding these low paid industries though, especially as many of the EU labour has now returned home following Brexit and COVID.

[SocialistClaret]

Fact is ,the absolute 100% banning across all **sports ensuring that you can only compete against your own “ birth gender “ is almost impossible to argue against, even the real crazies surely have to concede . Hopefully all sports bodies will quickly concur . **It must be noted though ,that sports like snooker/darts etc that have zero physical aspect should be exempt.

"the real crazies"

I wonder who you mean by this. Is this just your view of people who accept trans people and want them to have social acceptance and easy access to healthcare so that maybe one day only a quarter of trans children/teens will try to kill themselves, instead of almost half?

[SocialistClaret]

...

At some point (it is starting to happen thanks mainly to some extremely courageous and brilliant women) people are going to wake up to the reality of what is being demanded in the name of unbending, unquestioning support of gender identity ideology.

Yeah. Very extremely courageous of them. It's like that kid who is bullied by bigger kids at school, instead of fighting back they courageously bully a kid smaller than them instead.

[dsr]

"the real crazies"

I wonder who you mean by this. Is this just your view of people who accept trans people and want them to have social acceptance and easy access to healthcare so that maybe one day only a quarter of trans children/teens will try to kill themselves, instead of almost half?

So what you're saying is that there is a serious mental health problem amongst trans children and we must not debate what to do about it?

[Jellybean]

He's clearly referring to sport Mr hyperbole socialist, which trans competitors can still compete in as long as they are in the category for their biological sex, or they can compete in an open category. This retains fairness which I assume is what large claret is inferring should be a no brainer to everyone!

[android]

When you are occasionally thinking that Android is debating in good faith then stuff like this gives a reality check as to what he really thinks.

Care to explain Aggi? I quickly corrected it in a second post to many rather than most, as I don't have statistics on it but is was more of an observation rather than an expression of what I think. What is your objection? Is it the case that you regard Stonewall approved lesbians such as Alex Drummond with full beard and penis and sexually attracted to women, as a lesbian? It's a view that has taken hold, and perhaps you share it and that is what you mean, but can you not understand that is a bit offensive (and frankly demoralising and very scary) to many lesbians? A different view on the importance of sex does not mean that I am debating in bad faith (I don't see how that would benefit anyone) and I thought you were a bit better than that.

[android]

Yeah. Very extremely courageous of them. It's like that kid who is bullied by bigger kids at school, instead of fighting back they courageously bully a kid smaller than them instead.

Wow now that really is out of touch. Females are famous for bullying smaller males.

[Greenmile]

No idea why you call it and "admission" but empathy is good let's agree for a change.

Can we agree that empathy towards trans people is good? After all, that’s what I wrote but you seem to have “inadvertently” misrepresented it again.

If we can agree, then maybe you could start demonstrating some. ie - by referring to pre-op trans women as “pre-op trans women” and not “intact heterosexual males”.

Just an idea...

[SocialistClaret]

Wow now that really is out of touch. Females are famous for bullying smaller males.

Spectacularly missing the point.
I'm happy to help. In my analogy TERFs are the female victims of bullying by a male-dominated world who turn to then turn to bullying trans-people (the smaller kids).

But you knew this.

[CoolClaret]

Can SocialistClaret please list the ‘human rights’ that trans people currently don’t have in the UK


I’ll be waiting

[SocialistClaret]

So what you're saying is that there is a serious mental health problem amongst trans children and we must not debate what to do about it?

We know what to do about it, you are the people standing in the way of us doing that. We KNOW that gender affirming care from a young age leads to reduced risk of suicide among young trans people, and that societal acceptance of trans people leads to improvements in their mental health.

It's not up for debate what needs to be done. We already know.

For the avoidance of all doubt,

[SocialistClaret]

Can SocialistClaret please list the ‘human rights’ that trans people currently don’t have in the UK


I’ll be waiting

Self-determination and equal access to healthcare for a start. Do you have ANY idea how difficult it is for trans people to get the healthcare they need?

How about you list some of the rights other people have to give up to give them these rights?

[Rowls]

We know what to do about it, you are the people standing in the way of us doing that. We KNOW that gender affirming care from a young age leads to reduced risk of suicide among young trans people, and that societal acceptance of trans people leads to improvements in their mental health.

It's not up for debate what needs to be done. We already know.

For the avoidance of all doubt,

Those assertions are very much up for debate and cast in doubt. This is the problem.

[SocialistClaret]

Those assertions are very much up for debate and cast in doubt. This is the problem.

Anything can be up for debate if you steadfastly deny reality.

[CoolClaret]

Self-determination and equal access to healthcare for a start. Do you have ANY idea how difficult it is for trans people to get the healthcare they need?

How about you list some of the rights other people have to give up to give them these rights?

Thanks for the non-answer.

You’re acting as though this is an exact settled science when it’s infact far from it.

There’s enough of trans regret that suggests doing irreversible procedures to kids/teens is wildly damaging, trans rights activists like to pretend for example hormone blockers are ‘reversible’ but they really aren’t.

To your other points, do you know how hard it is for anyone to get the health care they really need in broken Britain? Goodluck getting a sports injury treated properly, been on the receiving end of that a few times - the consequences of which can lead to devastating impact on mental health

[CoolClaret]

As with all social issues throughout history, the majority should get to decide what rights the minority have. That's what he's saying.

What could go wrong?

Still can’t believe how hypocritical your username is to this in this post. That’s exactly what socialism is.

Collectivism triumphing over the individual

[SocialistClaret]

Thanks for the non-answer.

I literally gave you two examples you asked for.

[android]

Can we agree that empathy towards trans people is good? After all, that’s what I wrote but you seem to have “inadvertently” misrepresented it again.

If we can agree, then maybe you could start demonstrating some. ie - by referring to pre-op trans women as “pre-op trans women” and not “intact heterosexual males”.

Just an idea...

Ah ok that’s actually helpful, as I suspect this is where aggi was getting the wrong end of the stick.I have a great deal of empathy for anyone is either pre-op or post-op. When the GRA (I think I called it the GRR the other day grrr) was introduced this was exactly who it was aimed at. But I think it’s a common misconception that trans women fall into one of these categories. In fact, what we are seeing now is an increasing numbers of trans women who have no intention whatsoever of having any kind of op. Hence the increasing difficulty of knowing who is a predator and who just wants to live their best life.

[CoolClaret]

Anything can be up for debate if you steadfastly deny reality.

‘Steadfastly deny reality’ - like what, thinking that legitimising unsettled science on gender due to massive pressure which could lead to huge problems in the future that we haven’t seen before?

[SocialistClaret]

There’s enough of trans regret that suggests doing irreversible procedures to kids/teens is wildly damaging, trans rights activists like to pretend for example hormone blockers are ‘reversible’ but they really aren’t.

This is a lie. You're just telling/repeating lies.