Gary Lineker

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:10 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:16 pm
The kind of person who looks at stuff and goes "thats privatised now and its s**t"?
Privatised industries are not drivers of the economy.

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:13 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:17 pm
Yeah, I wonder what else could have happened that has turned us into an economic basket case?
It’s already been pointed out - the lockdown policy and keeping people at home is what triggered the sharp rise in unemployment.

People came out of the workforce and they did not return.

Bosscat
Posts: 25362
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:51 am
Been Liked: 8426 times
Has Liked: 18096 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Bosscat » Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:14 am

Didn't expect this thread to still be live this morning...

ClaretPete001
Posts: 2022
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:39 am
Been Liked: 308 times
Has Liked: 162 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by ClaretPete001 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:35 am

Big Vinny K wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:20 pm
So if that’s the only research you do need to do why do you keep on posting things about Lineker that are factually incorrect ?

Lineker has paid the same amount of tax (which will be a hell of a lot of tax btw) as any other director of a company who withdrew the amount of money he did. It will be a lot more than 19%.

You do realise that the personal income tax he pays on the dividend is in addition to the 19% corporation tax on the company profits ? Of course you don’t realise that - because you have zero clue what you are talking about.

Why is your criticism not with HMRC who have wasted tens of millions of pounds in the last few years unsuccessfully trying to take people to court for paying the taxes that their rules stipulate they should ? Which political party do you think have been urging these civil servants to try and pursue these cases ? Do you think it might be the same right wing party that you support ?

Try educating yourself a little bit on these matters before starting a thread.
The legislation regarding IR35 was setup for precisely the situation Gary Lineker finds himself in whereby companies hire contractors for prolonged periods.

It was to stop people working in lucrative jobs working for the same company over many years when they are really employees of the company.

If you are a supply teacher or similar etc. then you have to go onto PAYE even if you work for more than one school. And the same applies to many other jobs that pay low wages and people then get hit for PAYE, which makes a real difference.

Gary Lineker is an employee of the BBC and its the second time he has been caught up in tax avoidance issues.

And he gets away with it because he can afford to hire expensive lawyers to take on HMRC.

He is doing what rich people do and a few tweets doesn't make him any different.
This user liked this post: Damo

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:41 am

It’s true that most people wouldn’t have the resources to do what Gary lineker did.

roperclaret
Posts: 731
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:18 pm
Been Liked: 329 times
Has Liked: 37 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by roperclaret » Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:51 am

Bosscat wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:14 am
Didn't expect this thread to still be live this morning...
They’re all too busy arguing on the Tickets thread 😉
This user liked this post: Bosscat

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:54 am

Rowls wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:13 am
It’s already been pointed out - the lockdown policy and keeping people at home is what triggered the sharp rise in unemployment.

People came out of the workforce and they did not return.
Yes, that is a factor absolutely no doubt

Maybe its not just that though?

Maybe?

Possibly?

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:55 am

Bosscat wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:14 am
Didn't expect this thread to still be live this morning...
The mods are all double checking that they have enough points to qualify for the ballot that the club are going to announce to find "Burnleys Greatest Living fan"
This user liked this post: Bosscat

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by aggi » Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:56 am

Rowls wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:10 am
Privatised industries are not drivers of the economy.
Ha, this seems true at the moment but I suspect what you meant isn't how it reads to me.
This user liked this post: Rowls

ŽižkovClaret
Posts: 6962
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:50 pm
Been Liked: 2145 times
Has Liked: 3063 times
Location: Praha
Contact:

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by ŽižkovClaret » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:01 am

Good luck to him. Like the late Paul O'Grady, he seems to **** off all the right people, as far as i'm concerned. He'll do me.
This user liked this post: evensteadiereddie

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:02 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:54 am
Yes, that is a factor absolutely no doubt

Maybe its not just that though?

Maybe?

Possibly?
No, of course not. It’s been discussed at length that the U.K. has been a high tax, low growth economy for 20+ years.

Stagnation really hit home after the 2008 crash and has never recovered.

It’s the same in the EU because they are also a high tax, low growth economic zone.

The thing they have in common is high tax and low growth.

We need an alternative and Gary Lineker has shown the way: say ‘no’ to excessive tax.

NottsClaret
Posts: 3576
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:05 am
Been Liked: 2588 times
Has Liked: 1 time

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by NottsClaret » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:03 am

If we can avoid the politics aspect of it for a moment, could someone who understands these things explain a little more how HMRC hope to prove someone like Linekar is an employee rather than a contractor? Seems like a very grey area, once it gets to court. Is there something in black and white, about how many consecutive weeks he'd need to work for the same company or, say, that's the only company he worked for. Obviously he - or his company - work for loads of different broadcasters over time.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:03 am

Rowls wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:02 am
No, of course not. It’s been discussed at length that the U.K. has been a high tax, low growth economy for 20+ years.

Stagnation really hit home after the 2008 crash and has never recovered.

It’s the same in the EU because they are also a high tax, low growth economic zone.

The thing they have in common is high tax and low growth.

We need an alternative and Gary Lineker has shown the way: say ‘no’ to excessive tax.
Amazing

Oh well, if you are just going to do full on Rowls then I'll leave you to it

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:05 am

NottsClaret wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:03 am
If we can avoid the politics aspect of it for a moment, could someone who understands these things explain a little more how HMRC hope to prove someone like Linekar is an employee rather than a contractor? Seems like a very grey area, once it gets to court. Is there something in black and white, about how many consecutive weeks he'd need to work for the same company or, say, that's the only company he worked for. Obviously he - or his company - work for loads of different broadcasters over time.
They can't basically

If Rowls et al were being honest, they would have noticed that GL is just the latest in a line of TV personalities who have got off on this, and that includes people like Lorraine Kelly, who as far as I'm aware is only on one channel and one show

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by aggi » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:09 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:35 am
The legislation regarding IR35 was setup for precisely the situation Gary Lineker finds himself in whereby companies hire contractors for prolonged periods.

It was to stop people working in lucrative jobs working for the same company over many years when they are really employees of the company.

If you are a supply teacher or similar etc. then you have to go onto PAYE even if you work for more than one school. And the same applies to many other jobs that pay low wages and people then get hit for PAYE, which makes a real difference.

Gary Lineker is an employee of the BBC and its the second time he has been caught up in tax avoidance issues.

And he gets away with it because he can afford to hire expensive lawyers to take on HMRC.

He is doing what rich people do and a few tweets doesn't make him any different.
Most supply teachers are employed by the local authority or an agency, not the school.

If you look at lower paid people the argument is generally the other way, they want to be employed and the "employer" is trying to avoid that (uber, deliveroo, sports direct, etc). You'd be paying a higher marginal rate if you set up as Lineker has and wouldn't be getting sick days, paid holiday, NI contributions, etc.

IR35 is a mess. HMRC brings loads of these cases and wins and loses plenty of them so the case being heard isn't much of an indicator either way. Given the work he does of a very similar nature with other broadcasters there always seemed a pretty good chance that he wouldn't be classed as an employee.
This user liked this post: Lancasterclaret

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Big Vinny K » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:32 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:35 am
The legislation regarding IR35 was setup for precisely the situation Gary Lineker finds himself in whereby companies hire contractors for prolonged periods.

It was to stop people working in lucrative jobs working for the same company over many years when they are really employees of the company.

If you are a supply teacher or similar etc. then you have to go onto PAYE even if you work for more than one school. And the same applies to many other jobs that pay low wages and people then get hit for PAYE, which makes a real difference.

Gary Lineker is an employee of the BBC and its the second time he has been caught up in tax avoidance issues.

And he gets away with it because he can afford to hire expensive lawyers to take on HMRC.

He is doing what rich people do and a few tweets doesn't make him any different.
Lineker is not an employee of BBC - that’s just factually wrong.
He also has work with many other companies - BT, Spanish TV, many sponsorship deals etc. That is why he set up his media company. He set up a company just like millions of people in this country did. And he’s paid his tax in the same way as millions of company directors do.

If you honestly think that the HMRC have failed in their case because Lineker has expensive lawyers then you do not have a clue as to what has been happening in the last decade with IR35. Check out how many one consultancies for example have had long term contracts for the major banks for years…..and most of them only do work for the one bank not for multiple organisations like Lineker did. It’s the same in lots of the public sector too. Are all these tens and thousands of consultancy businesses also employing expensive lawyers to get round IR35 ?

Greenmile
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 1081 times
Has Liked: 4241 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Greenmile » Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:27 am

I do love a “Rowls sh1ts himself in public” thread.

I wonder how long until he gets it locked / deleted.
This user liked this post: Rowls

StuffyClaret
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 8:15 am
Been Liked: 144 times
Has Liked: 93 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by StuffyClaret » Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:41 am

Big Vinny K wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:32 am
Lineker is not an employee of BBC - that’s just factually wrong.
He also has work with many other companies - BT, Spanish TV, many sponsorship deals etc. That is why he set up his media company. He set up a company just like millions of people in this country did. And he’s paid his tax in the same way as millions of company directors do.

If you honestly think that the HMRC have failed in their case because Lineker has expensive lawyers then you do not have a clue as to what has been happening in the last decade with IR35. Check out how many one consultancies for example have had long term contracts for the major banks for years…..and most of them only do work for the one bank not for multiple organisations like Lineker did. It’s the same in lots of the public sector too. Are all these tens and thousands of consultancy businesses also employing expensive lawyers to get round IR35 ?
Not entirely true BVK. As a contractor in Financial Services myself for many years, I can state categorically that I have never spent more than two years with the same client.
Trading through a limited company was the most tax efficient (and legal) method available to me prior to the change of rules a couple of years back.
While the system was open to abuse by those who quit their employed roles on the Friday and returned on the following Monday as an independent contractor, I am sure that the vast majority of contractors did the role for one of two reasons, the flexibility offerer by contracting or just the fact that the chance if getting an employed role is limited by the vast competition out there. While there were positives to this, there were also many negatives, including no sick pay, no holiday pay and very little job security.
As a contractor now, I am obliged (in most cases) to work under an umbrella company, who charge for their 'service', I also have to pay the Employers NI out of my day rate and the levy fee. Despite this, we are being paid similar day rates to those on offer prior to the IR35 charges and we still get no sick pay, holiday pay or job security!

IanMcL
Posts: 30123
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:27 pm
Been Liked: 6340 times
Has Liked: 8651 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by IanMcL » Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:06 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:35 am
The legislation regarding IR35 was setup for precisely the situation Gary Lineker finds himself in whereby companies hire contractors for prolonged periods.

It was to stop people working in lucrative jobs working for the same company over many years when they are really employees of the company.

If you are a supply teacher or similar etc. then you have to go onto PAYE even if you work for more than one school. And the same applies to many other jobs that pay low wages and people then get hit for PAYE, which makes a real difference.

Gary Lineker is an employee of the BBC and its the second time he has been caught up in tax avoidance issues.

And he gets away with it because he can afford to hire expensive lawyers to take on HMRC.

He is doing what rich people do and a few tweets doesn't make him any different.
Gary Lineker has several contracts from everywhere. The BBC employ him in as a specialist contractor. No issue with him.

You are correct though, to highlight that his job is 'regular'. That does confuse the issue. He does have time off though.

The other end of the spectrum it is not so easy to escape. For example Parish Clerk's were self employed and some work for several parishes. Nowadays, HMRC say paye. Not fair!

Bosscat
Posts: 25362
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:51 am
Been Liked: 8426 times
Has Liked: 18096 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Bosscat » Wed Mar 29, 2023 12:36 pm

Rowls wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:10 am
Privatised industries are not drivers of the economy.
My m8 has a private hire firm and takes business men to the Airport ... He is "a driver of industry"
This user liked this post: Rowls

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:41 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:05 am
They can't basically

If Rowls et al were being honest, they would have noticed that GL is just the latest in a line of TV personalities who have got off on this, and that includes people like Lorraine Kelly, who as far as I'm aware is only on one channel and one show
"If Rowls was being honest" - Eh?

HMRC are consistently trying and failing to get cases like this. We need the likes of Lineker and Kelly to challenge them so that little guys don't get picked on.

This is how precedential law works. I'm genuinely happy Lineker won his case and hope that it means regular workers who HMRC pick on a try to get to pay excess tax are empowered to challenge and win like Lineker has done.

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:43 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:27 am
I do love a “Rowls sh1ts himself in public” thread.

I wonder how long until he gets it locked / deleted.
Ah, back to Insult World.

Where Rowls' opinions aren't ever challenged but insults run around with gay abandon. The lack of originality in the insults is telling. It's always a copy & paste job from whatever insult is de rigeur on twitter or reddit or whichever.

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:50 pm

Greenmile wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:27 am
I do love a “Rowls sh1ts himself in public” thread.

I wonder how long until he gets it locked / deleted.
Have you ever considered that people insulting others might be why threads get locked / shut down?

How about you stop the insults and abuse and try to debate me with some civility? Why don't we see if we can behave like adults and keep threads open longer?
This user liked this post: Exsus

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:51 pm

Rowls wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:02 pm
If the minimum wage and income tax were aligned then somebody working full time on minimum wage would be better off to the tune of £1437.80 per year. That's not the "tickle down" concept you were imagining.

That's wages that would go directly into the pay packets of the lowest paid. That is why I believe firmly in low taxation.

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Big Vinny K » Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:55 pm

StuffyClaret wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:41 am
Not entirely true BVK. As a contractor in Financial Services myself for many years, I can state categorically that I have never spent more than two years with the same client.
Trading through a limited company was the most tax efficient (and legal) method available to me prior to the change of rules a couple of years back.
While the system was open to abuse by those who quit their employed roles on the Friday and returned on the following Monday as an independent contractor, I am sure that the vast majority of contractors did the role for one of two reasons, the flexibility offerer by contracting or just the fact that the chance if getting an employed role is limited by the vast competition out there. While there were positives to this, there were also many negatives, including no sick pay, no holiday pay and very little job security.
As a contractor now, I am obliged (in most cases) to work under an umbrella company, who charge for their 'service', I also have to pay the Employers NI out of my day rate and the levy fee. Despite this, we are being paid similar day rates to those on offer prior to the IR35 charges and we still get no sick pay, holiday pay or job security!
Really depends as you know as there are tens of thousands of contractors. I worked for a major bank in Manchester and there was certain points where our work force was 40% contractors and we had 10,000 employees !!
We also had the 2 year internal rule but there were many exceptions. I had one contractor who was there for more than 25 years.
I know the downsides of being a contractor too so it’s not for everyone.

As you may know many / most of those journalists we see every day on the television are freelance and have set themselves up as limited companies.

IR35 was supposed to stop the practice of working for the same company for many years as a contractor but the law is far too complex and this why HMRC lose so many cases and waste millions every year doing so.

And as said Lineker has always had multiple contracts with multiple companies.

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Big Vinny K » Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:55 pm

StuffyClaret wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:41 am
Not entirely true BVK. As a contractor in Financial Services myself for many years, I can state categorically that I have never spent more than two years with the same client.
Trading through a limited company was the most tax efficient (and legal) method available to me prior to the change of rules a couple of years back.
While the system was open to abuse by those who quit their employed roles on the Friday and returned on the following Monday as an independent contractor, I am sure that the vast majority of contractors did the role for one of two reasons, the flexibility offerer by contracting or just the fact that the chance if getting an employed role is limited by the vast competition out there. While there were positives to this, there were also many negatives, including no sick pay, no holiday pay and very little job security.
As a contractor now, I am obliged (in most cases) to work under an umbrella company, who charge for their 'service', I also have to pay the Employers NI out of my day rate and the levy fee. Despite this, we are being paid similar day rates to those on offer prior to the IR35 charges and we still get no sick pay, holiday pay or job security!
Really depends as you know as there are tens of thousands of contractors. I worked for a major bank in Manchester and there was certain points where our work force was 40% contractors and we had 10,000 employees !!
We also had the 2 year internal rule but there were many exceptions. I had one contractor who was there for more than 25 years.
I know the downsides of being a contractor too so it’s not for everyone.

As you may know many / most of those journalists we see every day on the television are freelance and have set themselves up as limited companies.

IR35 was supposed to stop the practice of working for the same company for many years as a contractor but the law is far too complex and this why HMRC lose so many cases and waste millions every year doing so.

And as said Lineker has always had multiple contracts with multiple companies.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:56 pm

I think to debate like adults you first have to be able to debate like an adult

You've had numerous chances on this thread to state what additional issue this country might be facing and you've decided to ignore that chance to prove to people that you are actually willing to engage in a fair and truthful debate

So far you have failed (again) to do that

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:06 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:56 pm
I think to debate like adults you first have to be able to debate like an adult

You've had numerous chances on this thread to state what additional issue this country might be facing and you've decided to ignore that chance to prove to people that you are actually willing to engage in a fair and truthful debate

So far you have failed (again) to do that
Presuming this is aimed at me.

This is a thread about Gary Lineker, specifically about his tax win in the courts, more broadly about the subject of taxation.

If you want to widen that category then feel free to do so. If you think I'm being oblique then fair enough but let he who is without sin etc.

There's nothing stopping you talking about what you want to talk about but I don't think you've mentioned another subject explicitly? I'm not a great fan of guessing games. So go ahead, be my guest and say what you want to say.

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Big Vinny K » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:12 pm

Rowls wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:50 pm
Have you ever considered that people insulting others might be why threads get locked / shut down?

How about you stop the insults and abuse and try to debate me with some civility? Why don't we see if we can behave like adults and keep threads open longer?
Ok for you to throw a few insults though is it Rowls ?
Shall we not bother wasting everybody's time in highlighting these ?

So you started this thread because you wanted to champion your hero Lineker for paying such a low amount of tax ? (all very genuine and sincere motives for starting the thread as they usually are from you Rowls)

And then you went off on one with your TrussEconomics batshit crazy nonsense of low taxation.

You got asked a simple question on a number of occasions about whether you thought GL paying upwards of 60% tax rate was in your view too high or too low in your utopian economy which you refused to answer……well you did answer it by saying “No” to a question with 2 options whilst reminding everyone how good your English is !!

So remind us all why did you really start this thread on a subject you very clearly know so little about ? And will you be starting a similar thread on Claudia Winkleman ?

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:16 pm

Big Vinny K wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:12 pm
Ok for you to throw a few insults though is it Rowls ?
Shall we not both wasting everybody's time in highlighting these ?

So you started this thread because you wanted to champion your hero Lineker for paying such a low amount of tax ? (all very genuine and sincere motives for starting the thread as they usually are from you Rowls)

And then you went off on one with your TrussEconomics batshit crazy nonsense of low taxation.

You got asked a simple question on a number of occasions about whether you thought GL paying upwards of 60% tax rate was in your view too high or too low in your utopian economy which you refused to answer……well you did answer it by saying “No” to a question with 2 options whilst reminding everyone how good your English is !!

So remind us all why did you really start this thread on a subject you very clearly know so little about ? And will you be starting a similar thread on Claudia Winkleman ?
It's one thing to mock somebody's viewpoint in order to make a rhetorical point. There's a blurry line where it crosses over into abuse that is difficult to define but easy to see.

If you think I've insulted somebody unreasonably then point it out to me. I'm not averse to returning an insult but I hope I rarely instigate them.

I once quoted all the insults aimed at me on a thread to make the point of what I put up with but people mitakenly took it to mean I was getting upset so I stopped doing that. You can look at all the insults thrown at me here simply for extolling how low taxation could help the lowest paid in society.

I find it bizarre that such vitriole should be aimed at an opinion like that.

evensteadiereddie
Posts: 9585
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:45 pm
Been Liked: 3146 times
Has Liked: 10202 times
Location: Staffordshire

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by evensteadiereddie » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:18 pm

Damo wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:32 am
Millionaire tax avoider gets white knighted by people who hate tax avoiders because he tweets some stuff that they agree with shock horror.
Reminds me of the Gary Neville "I'm only getting paid a fortune to pundit in Qatar to highlight human rights violations" nonsense
Bizarre
:lol:

Popular, well paid television presenter despises racism, pays his taxes AND hacks off this board's right wing nut jobs.
What's not to like?
This user liked this post: ŽižkovClaret

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:19 pm

One poster, for example, gave a good account of the case for high taxation. It was all very polite and civilised.

I reposted with my case for low taxation. It was all very polite and civilised.

Then he called me a bigot.

Take Lancaster's post above. He accuses me of debating 'like a child' yet I don't think (from memory) he's put across his views on taxation or the Lineker case.

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:20 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:18 pm
:lol:

Popular, well paid television presenter despises racism, pays his taxes AND hacks off this board's right wing nut jobs.
What's not to like?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

As somebody who is very open about my right wing views on the virtues of low taxation (especially for the lowest paid in society) I can confirm I'm delighted that Lineker won his case.

"Hacked off" is for Hugh Grant and Prince Harry.

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:24 pm

Here's my post once again on why I support low taxation but especially for the lowest paid in society. I've calcaulated that if the starting point for income tax was set at the rate of the minumum wage then somebody working full time on min.wage would be better off by £1437.80 per year.
Rowls wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:38 pm
If you offer my hypothetical £1437.80 to a millionaire, they'd take it, of course. It would be something to splash away on their next cruise.

But if you offered that same £1437.80 to somebody toiling away working 40 hours a week on minimum wage it would make a real difference to their lives. It would help buy kids clothing, some food, that repair for the car that you can't really afford, that bill that you're struggling to pay. You might be able to afford a modest family holiday, turn the heating on a few extra minutes or maybe just not have to worry about bailiffs or getting into debt.

Lower tax this way does would massively improve the life of the low paid.

And there's something else beyond the actual amount of money. The matter of self respect and how people feel when their pay packet is enough to look after themselves - they feel better in themselves. They have more pride and respect. It's their money. I find it appalling that people who are paid what is considered to be a "minimum" level are expected to then pay out of this "minimum". It completely undermines the concept of it being a "minimum".

Just imagine for a second how it feels to be earning minimum wage and still be seeing large chunks of your income being taken away by the government. It is truly dispiriting.

Now we're finally having an honest debate - you've set out the case for high taxation and I've set out the case for low taxation. Thank you, elwaclaret.
This user liked this post: bfcmik

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Big Vinny K » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:26 pm

Rowls wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:16 pm
It's one thing to mock somebody's viewpoint in order to make a rhetorical point. There's a blurry line where it crosses over into abuse that is difficult to define but easy to see.

If you think I've insulted somebody unreasonably then point it out to me. I'm not averse to returning an insult but I hope I rarely instigate them.

I once quoted all the insults aimed at me on a thread to make the point of what I put up with but people mitakenly took it to mean I was getting upset so I stopped doing that. You can look at all the insults thrown at me here simply for extolling how low taxation could help the lowest paid in society.

I find it bizarre that such vitriole should be aimed at an opinion like that.
Probably a combination of
1) how much damage Truss and her cronies did to the economy and to peoples lives. There are probably people on this board who have been directly impacted by the very policy you are advocating or who have seen friends and family suffer. So no real surprise if people are critical of what you are saying.

2) but probably more than the first one above my guess would be it’s because of who you are Rowls and the things you have posted on this board in the past…..again no real point dancing around the truth is there ?

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Big Vinny K » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:29 pm

Rowls wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:19 pm
One poster, for example, gave a good account of the case for high taxation. It was all very polite and civilised.

I reposted with my case for low taxation. It was all very polite and civilised.

Then he called me a bigot.

Take Lancaster's post above. He accuses me of debating 'like a child' yet I don't think (from memory) he's put across his views on taxation or the Lineker case.
You mean Lancaster said you debated like a child ?
Is that like saying someone needs to go to bed so they can get up for school in the morning ?
You wouldn’t say that would you Rowls - you are far too sincere, genuine and all the rest of it to make a comment like that !

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:37 pm

Rowls wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:06 pm
Presuming this is aimed at me.

This is a thread about Gary Lineker, specifically about his tax win in the courts, more broadly about the subject of taxation.

If you want to widen that category then feel free to do so. If you think I'm being oblique then fair enough but let he who is without sin etc.

There's nothing stopping you talking about what you want to talk about but I don't think you've mentioned another subject explicitly? I'm not a great fan of guessing games. So go ahead, be my guest and say what you want to say.
I'm sure this makes you giggle Rowls, but its also why you get called out

Like I said, its up to you

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:38 pm

Big Vinny K wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:26 pm
Probably a combination of
1) how much damage Truss and her cronies did to the economy and to peoples lives. There are probably people on this board who have been directly impacted by the very policy you are advocating or who have seen friends and family suffer. So no real surprise if people are critical of what you are saying.

2) but probably more than the first one above my guess would be it’s because of who you are Rowls and the things you have posted on this board in the past…..again no real point dancing around the truth is there ?
1. Just because Truss implemented things badly does not mean the idea is wrong. Low taxation has been proven time after time after time to grow economies. If you put up a fence and it gets blown down in high winds you don't declare "That's it! Fences don't work!" You simply do a better job next time.

2. "it’s because of who you are Rowls" - quoted without comment.

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:40 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:37 pm
I'm sure this makes you giggle Rowls, but its also why you get called out

Like I said, its up to you
I do have a giggle at times, yes. We both know what you're alluding to but don't want to mention.

But there's nothing stopping you mentioning the B word if you want to. Fair enough, but you want to castigate myself for doing what you're doing?

This is akin to dancing in the dark, Lancaster. I'm happy to tango so all I can say is to stop if you're not.

claretonthecoast1882
Posts: 10088
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:59 pm
Been Liked: 4161 times
Has Liked: 57 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:42 pm

Rowls wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:40 pm


But there's nothing stopping you mentioning the B word if you want to. Fair enough, but you want to castigate myself for doing what you're doing?
Hasn't "Ballot" been mentioned enough
These 2 users liked this post: Lancasterclaret Rowls

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:44 pm

Rowls wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:40 pm
I do have a giggle at times, yes. We both know what you're alluding to but don't want to mention.

But there's nothing stopping you mentioning the B word if you want to. Fair enough, but you want to castigate myself for doing what you're doing?

This is akin to dancing in the dark, Lancaster. I'm happy to tango so all I can say is to stop if you're not.
You can't have a debate about economic growth in the UK without mentioning it

But you have failed to mention it repeatedly

I won't hesitate to agree when something is obvious, why do you find it so hard?

bfcmik
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:03 pm
Been Liked: 891 times
Has Liked: 1100 times
Location: Solihull Geriatric Centre

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by bfcmik » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:57 pm

I, (gulp), agree with Rowls on this. If you wish to 'trickle feed' the economy the best way to do it is for all tax allowance increases to be targeted primarily at the poorest end of the society. This year's freezing of tax thresholds means that my new basic state pension is now greater than my tax free allowance, how can that be considered right? Yet a person who earns hundreds of thousands, or more, pounds per annum needs tax cuts to 'incentivise' them.

As for IR35, it was initially brought in to stop the widespread, some might say almost ubiquitous, practice in the construction and transport industries for all workers to be employed on a self-employed contract as it gave the employers the right to not make any NI contributions nor be liable for sickness, holiday or maternity pays and be able to lay people off when business was quiet. Highly paid entertainers, etc were simply a by-product of the rule rather than the target.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:59 pm

bfcmik wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:57 pm
I, (gulp), agree with Rowls on this. If you wish to 'trickle feed' the economy the best way to do it is for all tax allowance increases to be targeted primarily at the poorest end of the society. This year's freezing of tax thresholds means that my new basic state pension is now greater than my tax free allowance, how can that be considered right? Yet a person who earns hundreds of thousands, or more, pounds per annum needs tax cuts to 'incentivise' them.

As for IR35, it was initially brought in to stop the widespread, some might say almost ubiquitous, practice in the construction and transport industries for all workers to be employed on a self-employed contract as it gave the employers the right to not make any NI contributions nor be liable for sickness, holiday or maternity pays and be able to lay people off when business was quiet. Highly paid entertainers, etc were simply a by-product of the rule rather than the target.
Lots to be said for it btw, but you also need to balance that with a stronger state and services than we have at the moment

bfcmik
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:03 pm
Been Liked: 891 times
Has Liked: 1100 times
Location: Solihull Geriatric Centre

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by bfcmik » Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:02 pm

Rowls wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:40 pm
But there's nothing stopping you mentioning the B word if you want to.
As for the B word. isn't it strange that the industries now suffering from a shortage of labour are the same ones that people used to say were filled with 'cheap East Europeans' keeping good WASP brits out of work?

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Big Vinny K » Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:09 pm

Rowls wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:38 pm
1. Just because Truss implemented things badly does not mean the idea is wrong. Low taxation has been proven time after time after time to grow economies. If you put up a fence and it gets blown down in high winds you don't declare "That's it! Fences don't work!" You simply do a better job next time.

2. "it’s because of who you are Rowls" - quoted without comment.
1) well it’s a bit more complex than saying low taxation has worked in some countries so should work in the UK as it depends on a whole range of factors unique to that country like work force, health systems, demographics, geography, regulation, and many many more. So why do you think last year when this was muted by Truss to make a couple of small changes that the economy collapsed within minutes ? Do you think all the financial institutions, investment firms, markets etc said “I like that idea but go away and build me a new bigger fence and we’ll be right behind it” ?
But hey ho you are of course entitled to your opinion on this one - but let’s not pretend that’s why you started this thread.

2) you asked….i’m just pointing out the truth. It’s very difficult for people to ignore someone’s reputation or whatever they have said in the past even if it’s on a completely different subject. And that’s especially the case for someone with a history of your posting. Even you must admit that at the very least you can see how it would be perceived if a poster starts a thread on a subject he readily admits he has very little knowledge on about a person who has spoken out on a different subject that the poster fundamentally disagrees on and has stated those views several times on this message board.

houseboy
Posts: 7065
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:43 pm
Been Liked: 2238 times
Has Liked: 1617 times
Location: Baxenden

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by houseboy » Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:10 pm

Bosscat wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:52 pm
Oh I do love lively debate on here ...


"Opens another bag of popcorn"🍿🍿
It’s brilliant mate. People arguing over matters that seemingly none of them really understand.

“Is this the right room for an argument?”
“I’ve told you once.”
This user liked this post: Bosscat

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:10 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:44 pm
You can't have a debate about economic growth in the UK without mentioning it

But you have failed to mention it repeatedly

I won't hesitate to agree when something is obvious, why do you find it so hard?
I think you can dbeate tax without needing to mention Brexit.

It's only if you believe that Brexit is somehow hampering the UK that you'd believe in its absolute necessity. I don't and so it's simple enough not to mention it.

We're not going to know the results of Brexit until at least another 5 years. That's a bare minimum. 20 years would be a better timescale.

Sure, you can read an article that says "this is better since Brexit" or "this is worse since Brexit" but it any of these articles go further than that and say "therefore Brexit is/isn't working" then it's hot air.

Brexit isn't in of itself a good or bad thing. It's what the country makes of it. If I thought the UK was going to be ruled by Socialism / Jeremy Corbyn for the next 20-30 years then I'd have been the biggest Remainer possible - because the success of Brexit will depend on how we interact with world markets.

The UK and EU economies have not diverged since Brexit. In the first four years the UK fared a few percentage points better. If you anyone claimed this "proved" Brexit was a roaring success they were wrong. In the next year, the reverse is predicted to be the case - the EU will fare a few percentage points better. If anyone claims this "proves" Brexit is a disaster they are wrong.

The UK and EU economies are still converged in their contractions and expansions.

The image below did not "prove" Bexit is brilliant:
Image

The image below shows the UK and major EU economies are still converged. If anything, the steeper predicted curve for the UK hints that Brexit is set to benefit our economy overall but it's essentially 'no change'. It would be ballsy to read too much into this other than 'no significant change'
Image

Here's a link to an interesting substack (four parts) that gives a good balanced view of some of the early Brexit impacts (both good and bad) written by an anonymous city trader:

https://konstantinkisin.substack.com/p/ ... dium=email

I think you're getting your Brexit news from too narrow a source TBH.

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:12 pm

Furthermore, the two major remaining economies in the EU (France and Germany) are both suffering from their own lockdown policies.

By printing money they have created financial instability.

In Germany it is causing major problems in the banking sector. In France it is forcing Macron to push through reforms to their pension schemes in order to save money.

These are both directly and indirectly the result of lockdown policies. Obviously nothing to do with Brexit as it's happening in France and Germany.

I don't need to provide links to these stories.

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:15 pm

houseboy wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:10 pm
It’s brilliant mate. People arguing over matters that seemingly none of them really understand.

“Is this the right room for an argument?”
“I’ve told you once.”
It's refreshing that's what forums should be about people airing different views & debating reasonably without suffocation or people who aren't interested in what's been said trying to shut the thread down. I'm not particularly interested in Gary lineker & his taxing arrangements but it's easy not to get involved & stay on the fringes or completely avoid the thread.

ClaretPete001
Posts: 2022
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:39 am
Been Liked: 308 times
Has Liked: 162 times

Re: Gary Lineker

Post by ClaretPete001 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:29 pm

Big Vinny K wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:32 am
Lineker is not an employee of BBC - that’s just factually wrong.
He also has work with many other companies - BT, Spanish TV, many sponsorship deals etc. That is why he set up his media company. He set up a company just like millions of people in this country did. And he’s paid his tax in the same way as millions of company directors do.

If you honestly think that the HMRC have failed in their case because Lineker has expensive lawyers then you do not have a clue as to what has been happening in the last decade with IR35. Check out how many one consultancies for example have had long term contracts for the major banks for years…..and most of them only do work for the one bank not for multiple organisations like Lineker did. It’s the same in lots of the public sector too. Are all these tens and thousands of consultancy businesses also employing expensive lawyers to get round IR35 ?

Comparing Consultancies to contractors is erroneous because the Consultancy employs the consultants who pay PAYE. It's quite possible the Consultancies are then employing consultants but most I know pay PAYE albeit I guess some will be self-employed.

Morally and ethically, Lineker is an employee of the BBC.

As I state above. Loads of people on very ordinary wages who work for different organisations are forced to pay PAYE. Even agency workers have to pay PAYE when working for lots of companies.

It's one law for ordinary workers and another for the well paid or those who are prepared to do it.

And yes lots of people get into hot water over their tax status. The HMRC is not a frivolous organisation it collects the money that pays for the schools and social care. If it takes legal action it will do so with some intent to win.

And if it loses then we are all poorer as a community...!

Locked