Gary Lineker

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Colburn_Claret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:06 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:53 pm
I don't think I could have been clearer

If you are not an refugee, and you fail your asylum claim, then you shouldn't be here

To find that out, you have to actually process and deal with asylum claims, you can't just assume that people are illegal immigrants

Unless I'm wrong, that is what you are essentially saying, and that is where the language and attitudes of Bravermann have got us to
Well fair enough, it isn't what I am saying, but if you misunderstood I'll take responsibility.

I take the attitude that if these people had a legitimate claim for asylum, they wouldn't need to circumvent the application process, by crossing the channel in boats, on the back of lorries etc. Before you argue, I don't doubt that the mud bath of legislation makes it difficult for genuine asylum seekers as well, but these obstacles are all removable.
At the same time, it is very simple imo, to categorise people who aren't genuine. The country they have travelled from being the top of the list. We know which countries have a poor track record for political or religious persecution. We know which ones don't. There has to be people who we can just say NO to, without clogging up the judicial system. As I said earlier, it might make the genuine claimants task a lot easier and quicker.

FOR THOSE PEOPLE who are just working the system, and have no right to be here, there has to be a quick, and easy solution. I also think that despite how offensive some people on here find it, the solution has to be a deterrent, and if sending people to Rwanda deters others from crossing the channel illegally, then it is a success.
I'm more than happy if someone can come up with an alternative to Rwanda, I'm not blinkered by it, but that alternative has to be just as effective a deterrent. To simply say I don't like it, without offering a credible alternative is just being churlish. We have to do something. The government has to do something, and while we can agree the government are making a pigs ear of it, at least they are trying. Those objectors, like Lineker, don't want them to even try.
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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:14 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:06 pm
Well fair enough, it isn't what I am saying, but if you misunderstood I'll take responsibility.

I take the attitude that if these people had a legitimate claim for asylum, they wouldn't need to circumvent the application process, by crossing the channel in boats, on the back of lorries etc. Before you argue, I don't doubt that the mud bath of legislation makes it difficult for genuine asylum seekers as well, but these obstacles are all removable.
At the same time, it is very simple imo, to categorise people who aren't genuine. The country they have travelled from being the top of the list. We know which countries have a poor track record for political or religious persecution. We know which ones don't. There has to be people who we can just say NO to, without clogging up the judicial system. As I said earlier, it might make the genuine claimants task a lot easier and quicker.

FOR THOSE PEOPLE who are just working the system, and have no right to be here, there has to be a quick, and easy solution. I also think that despite how offensive some people on here find it, the solution has to be a deterrent, and if sending people to Rwanda deters others from crossing the channel illegally, then it is a success.
I'm more than happy if someone can come up with an alternative to Rwanda, I'm not blinkered by it, but that alternative has to be just as effective a deterrent. To simply say I don't like it, without offering a credible alternative is just being churlish. We have to do something. The government has to do something, and while we can agree the government are making a pigs ear of it, at least they are trying. Those objectors, like Lineker, don't want them to even try.
Lineker isn't bothered about mass immigration or the negative effects as it doesn't affect him, he can idle away in his walled mansion with private security tweeting away to his heart content he doesn't have to live in it or experience it if he did his attitude would be completely different.
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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:16 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:06 pm
Well fair enough, it isn't what I am saying, but if you misunderstood I'll take responsibility.

I take the attitude that if these people had a legitimate claim for asylum, they wouldn't need to circumvent the application process, by crossing the channel in boats, on the back of lorries etc. Before you argue, I don't doubt that the mud bath of legislation makes it difficult for genuine asylum seekers as well, but these obstacles are all removable.
At the same time, it is very simple imo, to categorise people who aren't genuine. The country they have travelled from being the top of the list. We know which countries have a poor track record for political or religious persecution. We know which ones don't. There has to be people who we can just say NO to, without clogging up the judicial system. As I said earlier, it might make the genuine claimants task a lot easier and quicker.

FOR THOSE PEOPLE who are just working the system, and have no right to be here, there has to be a quick, and easy solution. I also think that despite how offensive some people on here find it, the solution has to be a deterrent, and if sending people to Rwanda deters others from crossing the channel illegally, then it is a success.
I'm more than happy if someone can come up with an alternative to Rwanda, I'm not blinkered by it, but that alternative has to be just as effective a deterrent. To simply say I don't like it, without offering a credible alternative is just being churlish. We have to do something. The government has to do something, and while we can agree the government are making a pigs ear of it, at least they are trying. Those objectors, like Lineker, don't want them to even try.
There are currently no legal routes for asylum seekers (Hong Kong, Syrians and Ukrainians have schemes)

If the Rwanda plan had a chance for people to successfully claim asylum whilst there in the UK, then it wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a way of dealing with it

But it doesn't, we will be essentially deporting people to Rwanda, a country with an, er, "interesting" human rights record and currently supporting an ongoing rebel conflict in Zaire

That goes against everything that I thought we stood for as a country

And I've offered alternative arrangements

And the governments latest plan was barges (which was found out last year to be more expensive than hotels) or converting two ex army bases in camps

They have both gone down like lead balloons for very obvious reasons, and I fail to see a solution that doesn't involve more money being spent on dealing with the issue, by putting in place the schemes I outlined in my previous posts

But they aren't any votes in that, and that is why the comparison to 1930s Germany is unfortunately spot on
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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Colburn_Claret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:29 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:16 pm
There are currently no legal routes for asylum seekers (Hong Kong, Syrians and Ukrainians have schemes)

If the Rwanda plan had a chance for people to successfully claim asylum whilst there in the UK, then it wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a way of dealing with it

But it doesn't, we will be essentially deporting people to Rwanda, a country with an, er, "interesting" human rights record and currently supporting an ongoing rebel conflict in Zaire

That goes against everything that I thought we stood for as a country

And I've offered alternative arrangements

And the governments latest plan was barges (which was found out last year to be more expensive than hotels) or converting two ex army bases in camps

They have both gone down like lead balloons for very obvious reasons, and I fail to see a solution that doesn't involve more money being spent on dealing with the issue, by putting in place the schemes I outlined in my previous posts

But they aren't any votes in that, and that is why the comparison to 1930s Germany is unfortunately spot on
Fair enough Lancs, I admit I haven't trawled through 5 pages of this thread.
It should be very simple to categorise what is a refugee/asylum seeker. To be honest I thought there always had been, I have been brought up with it, so it shouldn't require reinventing the wheel.
Fleeing a war zone. Political persecution. Religious persecution. Historical colonial link. They are all pretty obvious.
IF as you say, the government are denying a legal accomodation for any of the above I would be dead against it.
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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Jellybean » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:37 pm

My issue now is that it has become a trade, a lucrative industry for the trafficking gangs, charities and legal teams. I'm pretty sure in Calais there will be all sorts going on to prep the guys once they get to the UK ready for their interview: so you're from Iran - yes, and you're gay and Christian so face persecution if you return, yes definitely. Application approved. And if not a lengthy appeals process which usually ends up with them being approved.

Setting up a processing centre in Rwanda is the only way we can stop the boats, I'm willing to bet if you set up several legal and safe routes for them to apply for asylum we will still see the boats bringing tens of thousands, numbers will keep increasing because they know the likes of linekar will keep up with the rhetoric and put the pressure on to welcome the poor asylum seekers.

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Jellybean » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:39 pm

Just to add as Colburn has said above, anyone legitimately seeking asylum here should always be made welcome and they should be able to live here contribute to our country, as many have and are doing. But trying to filter out the genuine people must be pretty much impossible now with the current system.

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:42 pm

Jellybean wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:37 pm
My issue now is that it has become a trade, a lucrative industry for the trafficking gangs, charities and legal teams. I'm pretty sure in Calais there will be all sorts going on to prep the guys once they get to the UK ready for their interview: so you're from Iran - yes, and you're gay and Christian so face persecution if you return, yes definitely. Application approved. And if not a lengthy appeals process which usually ends up with them being approved.

Setting up a processing centre in Rwanda is the only way we can stop the boats, I'm willing to bet if you set up several legal and safe routes for them to apply for asylum we will still see the boats bringing tens of thousands, numbers will keep increasing because they know the likes of linekar will keep up with the rhetoric and put the pressure on to welcome the poor asylum seekers.
Having safe and viable routes for asylum seekers stops the boats

Deporting people to a country in the middle of africa just diminishes us as a country

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by aggi » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:45 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:06 pm
Well fair enough, it isn't what I am saying, but if you misunderstood I'll take responsibility.

I take the attitude that if these people had a legitimate claim for asylum, they wouldn't need to circumvent the application process, by crossing the channel in boats, on the back of lorries etc. Before you argue, I don't doubt that the mud bath of legislation makes it difficult for genuine asylum seekers as well, but these obstacles are all removable.
At the same time, it is very simple imo, to categorise people who aren't genuine. The country they have travelled from being the top of the list. We know which countries have a poor track record for political or religious persecution. We know which ones don't. There has to be people who we can just say NO to, without clogging up the judicial system. As I said earlier, it might make the genuine claimants task a lot easier and quicker.

FOR THOSE PEOPLE who are just working the system, and have no right to be here, there has to be a quick, and easy solution. I also think that despite how offensive some people on here find it, the solution has to be a deterrent, and if sending people to Rwanda deters others from crossing the channel illegally, then it is a success.
I'm more than happy if someone can come up with an alternative to Rwanda, I'm not blinkered by it, but that alternative has to be just as effective a deterrent. To simply say I don't like it, without offering a credible alternative is just being churlish. We have to do something. The government has to do something, and while we can agree the government are making a pigs ear of it, at least they are trying. Those objectors, like Lineker, don't want them to even try.
As Lancaster has said, the big issue, intentionally, is there isn't a "legal" alternative to the boats.

You can see the home secretary struggling to come up with "legal" routes here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nhl87CLU70

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Stanbill05 » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:51 pm

My holiday to Rwanda and Uganda was spectacular. Nothing wrong with the place with UK funding maintaining standards. Arguably more realistic than taking over more shabby hotels and defunct military camps. How else do you plan for unknown thousands of arrivals on asmall island not blessed with spare accomodation capacity?
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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by TheFamilyCat » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:52 pm

Jellybean wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:39 pm
Just to add as Colburn has said above, anyone legitimately seeking asylum here should always be made welcome and they should be able to live here contribute to our country, as many have and are doing. But trying to filter out the genuine people must be pretty much impossible now with the current system.
Careful now. You nearly blamed the system and not the migrants then.
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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:53 pm

aggi wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:45 pm
As Lancaster has said, the big issue, intentionally, is there isn't a "legal" alternative to the boats.

You can see the home secretary struggling to come up with "legal" routes here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nhl87CLU70
No there isn't because effectively you would be extraditing (for want of a better word) citizens of another said country against their governments wishes whether war torn or oppressed or not, it's 1 thing actually accommodating people when they arrived here & a completely unprecedented set of affairs actually sorting the travelling arrangements out for them. It's not our obligation or business to be doing that we are already doing our best for them in processing & when applicable housing them.

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by evensteadiereddie » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:56 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:14 pm
Lineker isn't bothered about mass immigration or the negative effects as it doesn't affect him, he can idle away in his walled mansion with private security tweeting away to his heart content he doesn't have to live in it or experience it if he did his attitude would be completely different.
And you do?

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Jellybean » Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:33 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:52 pm
Careful now. You nearly blamed the system and not the migrants then.
Oh no I totally agree the system is broken, it's ridiculous to have an asylum process whereby you need to be in the country to apply! But where there are poor systems and a high number of native misguided do gooders it's a recipe for the disaster we have now.

Lancaster - there is no way the boats stop if you create a different process, no way, and I honestly think you aren't so naive as to think that but probably can't go against the rhetoric of a liberal.

And you sound a bit prejudiced against Rwanda, and more widely Africa, in your comment. The majority of the applicants are fit young men, desperate for a new life in a safe place away from terror and persecution, so why not have the UK partnering with Rwanda to help them?

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by android » Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:51 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:16 pm
There are currently no legal routes for asylum seekers (Hong Kong, Syrians and Ukrainians have schemes)

If the Rwanda plan had a chance for people to successfully claim asylum whilst there in the UK, then it wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a way of dealing with it

But it doesn't, we will be essentially deporting people to Rwanda, a country with an, er, "interesting" human rights record and currently supporting an ongoing rebel conflict in Zaire

That goes against everything that I thought we stood for as a country

And I've offered alternative arrangements

And the governments latest plan was barges (which was found out last year to be more expensive than hotels) or converting two ex army bases in camps

They have both gone down like lead balloons for very obvious reasons, and I fail to see a solution that doesn't involve more money being spent on dealing with the issue, by putting in place the schemes I outlined in my previous posts

But they aren't any votes in that, and that is why the comparison to 1930s Germany is unfortunately spot on
Your argument would carry greater weight without the last sentence, which we could well do without. Although, it is worth mentioning the moral dilemma for a country as attractive as the UK (obviously there are not many) about wanting to be compassionate and open (most of us would be that way inclined) and being forced to actually impose some unpalatable barriers to not make immigration too easy (with some notable exceptions) as we could not cope with the numbers (most of us do not want to be associated with this and all attractive countries try to do this uncomfortable unfortunate bit on the quiet).

Regardless of Lineker's other tweets, he should have apologised for the ludicrous Hitler comparison. Comparing people you disagree with to the Nazis is what lead to the sort of violence we saw in Auckland last week. Some thug, pumped up with deranged ideas that he was facing a Nazi, rained punches on an innocent 70 odd year old women's rights supporter and fractured her eye socket.
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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Swizzlestick » Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:58 pm

android wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:51 pm
Comparing people you disagree with to the Nazis is what lead to the sort of violence we saw in Auckland last week. Some thug, pumped up with deranged ideas that he was facing a Nazi, rained punches on an innocent 70 odd year old women's rights supporter and fractured her eye socket.
Who was the women’s rights supporter?

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by android » Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:17 pm

Swizzlestick wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:58 pm
Who was the women’s rights supporter?
A female face in the crowd.

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:25 pm

Jellybean wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:33 pm
Oh no I totally agree the system is broken, it's ridiculous to have an asylum process whereby you need to be in the country to apply! But where there are poor systems and a high number of native misguided do gooders it's a recipe for the disaster we have now.

Lancaster - there is no way the boats stop if you create a different process, no way, and I honestly think you aren't so naive as to think that but probably can't go against the rhetoric of a liberal.

And you sound a bit prejudiced against Rwanda, and more widely Africa, in your comment. The majority of the applicants are fit young men, desperate for a new life in a safe place away from terror and persecution, so why not have the UK partnering with Rwanda to help them?
Some good points there why aren’t we as a nation interacting & properly engaging with the authorities overseas & trying to help them before they arrive here, maybe they aren’t interested or have we tried who knows, it seems to be good old England is just a soft touch & the first port of call to try to settle, you don’t really see other countries falling over themselves trying to help them the migrants aren’t stupid that’s why they head here safe in the knowledge a better life is almost guaranteed.

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Swizzlestick » Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:28 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:25 pm
Some good points there why aren’t we as a nation interacting & properly engaging with the authorities overseas & trying to help them before they arrive here, maybe they aren’t interested or have we tried who knows, it seems to be good old England is just a soft touch & the first port of call to try to settle, you don’t really see other countries falling over themselves trying to help them the migrants aren’t stupid that’s why they head here safe in the knowledge a better life is almost guaranteed.
Of course other countries take in far more migrants than us but you’ve never been one for facts https://inews.co.uk/news/asylum-seekers ... ed-2192432
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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:31 pm

Swizzlestick wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:28 pm
Of course other countries take in far more migrants than us but you’ve never been one for facts https://inews.co.uk/news/asylum-seekers ... ed-2192432
But how many properly settle or just transient!

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Big Vinny K » Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:31 pm

Swizzlestick wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:28 pm
Of course other countries take in far more migrants than us but you’ve never been one for facts https://inews.co.uk/news/asylum-seekers ... ed-2192432
I see Rowls has got exactly what he wanted on this thread.

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Big Vinny K » Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:35 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:31 pm
But how many properly settle or just transient!
Most of them settle as why the f-uck would they want to come and live here alongside fruit loops like you ?
As you said yourself they are not stupid

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by TheFamilyCat » Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:36 pm

Jellybean wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:33 pm
misguided do gooders
JFW

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:14 pm

Big Vinny K wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:35 pm
Most of them settle as why the f-uck would they want to come and live here alongside fruit loops like you ?
As you said yourself they are not stupid
How do you know "most of them settle" I don't? It's recognized that during the final destination to the UK migrants will use other countries as stopping off points (rest breaks) without properly settling, the UK is widely recognized as the place to be & the number 1 destination to settle.

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by ClaretPete001 » Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:15 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:20 am
So you are saying that the reason Lineker used the 1930s argument was because Bravermann used the "invasion" argument

Bravermann was called out for the "invasion" comment at her local constituency meeting by an actual Holocaust survivor, using her own experiences of why invasion was such a horrible term to use

I happen to agree with both the survivor and GL, and I agree with them not because I agree with their political stance but because I know my history of this period and the rhetoric is far too similar to ignore

I hope I am wrong, but if you spend all your time in government blaming a small group of people for everything and amplify that to get votes, then the country is on a very slippery slope

Regarding Brexit, I can't speak for anyone else, but two of my actual jobs involved dealing with trade between the EU and the UK (specifically Ireland) so I was speaking from a position of knowing what I was talking about

Anyone want to still claim I was wrong?
My point is not about the substance of the issues that caused the Lineker spat or Brexit. The point is the quality of the debate and who benefits from the rapid descent into polemics and hyperbole.

Othering people is the history of humanity. No human conflict is free of it and no human society escapes from it. Whether it is Shias and Sunnis in Iraq, Muslims and Hindus in Pakistan or Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland. And indeed almost every immigrant group that has ever come to these shores. And, of course, the class system and caste system and almost every other system of human interaction.

If Gary Lineker has no more knowledge of human history other than invoking Godwin's law then he shouldn't be commenting because everyone knows what happens when you do that on social media....! Braverman's comments are risible not because they have some likeness to 1930s Germany but because they demonstrate someone who doesn't have the capacity to operate at cabinet level or indeed any level. Surely that is the substantive point here.

Ultimately, if you feel that Lineker's comments added any light to the debate then fair enough... Personally, I thought it made him look like a wally and ultimately damaged the BBC. We can agree to disagree.

I wasn't referring to any of your comments on Brexit -it was an example where a debate descended into such absurdity that positions became entrenched and people stopped listening.
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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:18 pm

Couldn't edit my post but this article explains it.

https://www.eyes-on-europe.eu/what-make ... -migrants/

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Big Vinny K » Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:24 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:14 pm
How do you know "most of them settle" I don't? It's recognized that during the final destination to the UK migrants will use other countries as stopping off points (rest breaks) without properly settling, the UK is widely recognized as the place to be & the number 1 destination to settle.
Is it ?
Is that a fact ?
You are saying that more migrants settle in England than any other country in the world ?
Post a link then for this widely recognised fact of yours.

Btw that absolute lie and ******** you are posting if true would mean more migrants have settled in the UK than the 50 million plus that have settled in America.

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by nil_desperandum » Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:35 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:14 pm
.................., the UK is widely recognized as the place to be & the number 1 destination to settle.
The article you yourself posted below seems to contradict this.
"Yet even if the collective imagination thinks otherwise, only a very small proportion of asylum seekers who enter France actually try to go to the UK. In fact, in 2019, France received 143,000 asylum applications compared to 35,000 for the United Kingdom. As the figures show, the UK is far from receiving a disproportionate number of migrants."

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Big Vinny K » Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:47 pm

Don’t expect the illiterate bigot to read beyond the headlines he is looking for.
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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:49 pm

This is reality for all of you who deny it

Boats where not an issue before we decided to throw away the agreements with other countries

This is a UK government issue that they just haven't tried to sort

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/j ... /88505.htm

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:51 pm

Limited, if any support, for the Rwanda plan at Question Time

https://twitter.com/implausibleblog/sta ... 6456629249

dsr
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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by dsr » Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:03 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:42 pm
Having safe and viable routes for asylum seekers stops the boats
Well, obviously. If the policy is "come one, come all,no-one is turned away" then there will be no refugees in small boats from France. But as soon as you start restricting access again, then the boats will start again.

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:08 pm

dsr wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:03 pm
Well, obviously. If the policy is "come one, come all,no-one is turned away" then there will be no refugees in small boats from France. But as soon as you start restricting access again, then the boats will start again.
No, they get processed

If they are eligible for asylum, then they are allowed to stay

If they are not, they get sent back

I've already said this, but it might have been lost in all the whataboutery

aggi
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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by aggi » Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:14 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:08 pm
No, they get processed

If they are eligible for asylum, then they are allowed to stay

If they are not, they get sent back

I've already said this, but it might have been lost in all the whataboutery
If you just process then in a timely manner then how can you pretend to be tough on immigration and promise to fix the problem though?

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Jellybean » Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:16 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:49 pm
This is reality for all of you who deny it

Boats where not an issue before we decided to throw away the agreements with other countries

This is a UK government issue that they just haven't tried to sort

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/j ... /88505.htm
Thanks for sharing this, really interesting read and it seems that because brexit has lead to tightening up of the controls and security of lorries and trucks, it means the traffickers have had to adapt their methods. So basically there could have been similar numbers smuggled in previously via lorries but entirely unknown to authorities, whereas now the border control boats are bringing them in so it's actually (ironically) more controlled in a way and we can attach numbers to this method of coming here by boat.

Also interesting that the Dublin agreement figures are as follows.
Year Transfers out of the UK
2015 510
2016 362
2017 314
2018 209

So that was not helping control things, but I accept that if the govt had used this policy more effectively then perhaps more might have been transferred back to EU countries.

It's just such a mess. I honestly don't know what can be done, but surely there has to be an acceptance that is we process claims quicker, more will come, if we don't do anything more will come - and it's completely unsustainable 😢

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Jellybean » Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:19 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:51 pm
Limited, if any support, for the Rwanda plan at Question Time

https://twitter.com/implausibleblog/sta ... 6456629249
If you say you agree with the Rwanda plan in public then you will be labelled a bigot as people have probably done on here, sneering because you dare to go against the narrative. But people are scared to say what they really think because of the culture created by so called progressive liberalism 😢

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:20 pm

Christ Jellybean, those two answers are Jakub esq!

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Jellybean » Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:39 pm

I'm sorry 😁 I don't want to get this thread removed as I'm trying to debate in a level headed way, but I just find it so very frustrating. Maybe I will leave it there, I've made my points!

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by evensteadiereddie » Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:56 pm

Jellybean wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:19 pm
If you say you agree with the Rwanda plan in public then you will be labelled a bigot as people have probably done on here, sneering because you dare to go against the narrative. But people are scared to say what they really think because of the culture created by so called progressive liberalism 😢
:lol:

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by CaymanClaret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:58 pm

The thing here is, 'don't hate the player, hate the game'.

Blaming individuals for legally and legitimated lowering their tax burden is a nonsense when no law has been broken. The systems which allow these loopholes to exist are where your ire should be focused.

Law firms and financial service providers make an absolute fortune by assisting their customer to take advantage of laws (or loopholes within laws) to maximise the amount of $ that they get to keep.

Maybe I'm a cynic, but I dont see the laws being changed, or the loopholes going away. The people most empowered to change them, are the exact same people that are benefitting from them.
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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by CaymanClaret » Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:59 pm

Sorry, my response was in reply to the initial convo, not what it's changed into!

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by elwaclaret » Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:01 am

Migration can be managed properly, it is the political good will that is missing. Horrendous as it is, it worries me that the government are happy with this playing out in public, makes me think I’m missing even bigger **** storms going on that we’re being diverted from noticing.

They are playing to the core support, while attempting to claim populist issues to hide the complete mess the entire country is in… keeping immigration in the limelight, will buy them time with the less educated little Englanders.

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:34 am

nil_desperandum wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:35 pm
The article you yourself posted below seems to contradict this.
"Yet even if the collective imagination thinks otherwise, only a very small proportion of asylum seekers who enter France actually try to go to the UK. In fact, in 2019, France received 143,000 asylum applications compared to 35,000 for the United Kingdom. As the figures show, the UK is far from receiving a disproportionate number of migrants."
In 2019 a lot can happen in 4 years the article headline was published in 2022, do keep up.

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by SocialistClaret » Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:55 am

Jellybean wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:19 pm
If you say you agree with the Rwanda plan in public then you will be labelled a bigot as people have probably done on here, sneering because you dare to go against the narrative. But people are scared to say what they really think because of the culture created by so called progressive liberalism 😢
I think wanting concentration camps for asylum seekers and migrants, but being too cowardly to put them in your own country, is definitely something you should be scared of saying out loud.

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:29 am

Jellybean wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:39 pm
I'm sorry 😁 I don't want to get this thread removed as I'm trying to debate in a level headed way, but I just find it so very frustrating. Maybe I will leave it there, I've made my points!
I don't agree with you, but you have made your point

I'll stuck to my points that without safe and legal routes, agreements with other countries (and a pan-European approach) and a quicker turnaround of asylum applicants then this problem won't go away

I'd also stress that this is clearly now an situation where the government have decided to make political capital out of peoples misery, and fuelling anti refugee feelings for votes

1930s Germany, Orbans Hungary, Trumps USA - all did it or do it and its horrible to see
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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:33 am

IanMcL wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:44 am
That is not the fault of the refugee. It is the fault of a callous tory fascist dictatorship trying to create vast numbers of refugees (which the rename illegal migrants, as direct stoking of the fire) so that they are placed all over the country. This unsettles every neighbourhood (the unknown) and then the nasties provoke.

The idea being, not to properly process refugees (80% legit) which would be easier and instead, like Brexit, generate their right wing hate vote.

Could have been Jews, blacks, Asians, Scots, Irish or all, of course. Any minority.

We are reliving Animal Farm. Two legged pigs in charge.
You might find it more palatable blaming our government because it suits your agenda but you are wrong, you are correct in saying it’s not the refugees fault but it’s well worth remembering people wouldn’t be refugees in the first place if other countries economies were stable, everything has to start somewhere, our country & government haven’t created this mess by all means argue that they aren’t handling it as well as they should & you might have a valid point.

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Rowls » Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:58 am

Well what do you know? We got plenty of sensible and reasoned debate.

There's a case to be made for high taxation and some have made it well on here. I disagree and I think the economic data we've amassed over a few centuries now disproves the high taxation / centralized economic theories but there's always a debate to be had.

What I find to be nonsensical is the notion that an historically Christian country led by a Hindu (and with a Muslim leader north of the wall) with one of the most ethnically diverse populations and with a great record on integration is in any way similar to "Germany in the 1930s" and the obvious analogy to the Nazi regime. It really is silly.

If people insist on the comparison, they won't win the debate. If you want evidence of this look no further than the 10 percentage points the Conservatives clawed back on Labour simply for announcing the new policy on illegal immigration.

The electorate really don't approve of illegal immigration, especially when it is being coordinated by foreign criminal mafia style gangs. The open flouting of immigration rules has been going on for decades now and the public are fed up with it. The electorate will reward any party that can actually grasp this nettle and they will punish those who prevaricate or fail to even acknowledge the problem.

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by SussexDon1inIreland » Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:17 am

We have let in more Albanians than any other EU country.

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by IanMcL » Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:23 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:33 am
You might find it more palatable blaming our government because it suits your agenda but you are wrong, you are correct in saying it’s not the refugees fault but it’s well worth remembering people wouldn’t be refugees in the first place if other countries economies were stable, everything has to start somewhere, our country & government haven’t created this mess by all means argue that they aren’t handling it as well as they should & you might have a valid point.
A refugee is a tefugee until you process their application, the world over! Governments process or don't process applications for refuge!!!

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:26 am

SussexDon1inIreland wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:17 am
We have let in more Albanians than any other EU country.
I don't know about that tbh, but that would be as example of something that would be easily sorted if the will was there

Screen the applicants, if they are eligible for asylum, then grant it, if they are not, then they are refused asylum and sent back

The issue is the failure of us to have the procedures and staff in place to quickly turn around applications, and instead we concentrate on pie in the sky plans like Rwanda that won't ever get off the ground (plus are deeply against everything we have ever stood for)

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Re: Gary Lineker

Post by martin_p » Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:29 am

SussexDon1inIreland wrote:
Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:17 am
We have let in more Albanians than any other EU country.
That’s just not true.

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