Lancashire League 28th May

[Clarets4me]

The greatest " Pro " to ever grace the Lancashire League was Sydney Barnes ... first employed as a " Pro " at Rishton, he played at various times for Burnley, Church and Rawtenstall. He was picked for an Ashes tour straight from the League, and still holds the record for the quickest Test bowler to get to 150 wickets, in just 24 Tests. His record of 49 wickets in a Test series ( South Africa Tour 1913/14 ) will probably never be beaten, and he only played in 5 out of the 6 Tests ...

His final three seasons in the League were for Rawtenstall, over which he took 278 wickets in 66 matches, at an average of 8.17, with an economy rate of 2.18. Remarkable you may say, but he was in his 61st year when he finished his final season !! His full stats ....

http://www.lancashireleague.com/Players/0/250/250.html

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Was Miller the first to do the double in my time of watching? Pepper (Burnley) and Hazare (Rawtenstall) both achieved it in 1949. Brought up watching Burnley, I had it rammed down my throat that Pepper was the greatest pro ever. The only time I saw him play was as a sub pro for Tod & Lowerhouse when he was in his mid to late 40s.

Yes Miller achieved the feat in 1990. Chris Harris did the same at Ramsbottom in 1996.

[ClaretTony]

Yes Miller achieved the feat in 1990. Chris Harris did the same at Ramsbottom in 1996.

I knew there was a fourth but I couldn’t think of him. It’s some achievement given the number of games in a Lancashire League season.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Yes a remarkable achievement as you say with the number of games actually played.

[arise_sir_charge]

I knew there was a fourth but I couldn’t think of him. It’s some achievement given the number of games in a Lancashire League season.

It’s an unbelievable achievement and both Miller and Harris were phenomenal cricketers.

It will never be done again due to the further reduced number of games, likelihood of no results and bowling restrictions.

[ClaretTony]

It’s an unbelievable achievement and both Miller and Harris were phenomenal cricketers.

It will never be done again due to the further reduced number of games, likelihood of no results and bowling restrictions.

Miller and Harris probably did it at a time when games were replayed (I’m not sure) but that wasn’t the case when Pepper & Hazare did the double although there were four more games scheduled then than today.

Agree with you that it’s unlikely to be done again.

[Andreshotboots]

Funky was just the ultimate league pro. Fabulous player on the pitch, loved a party off it, drunk like a fish, smoked like a chimney and loved the ladies .

He used to buy several portions of chippy chips and gravy portions then heat them up during the week..an absolute legend

[dsr]

Funky was just the ultimate league pro. Fabulous player on the pitch, loved a party off it, drunk like a fish, smoked like a chimney and loved the ladies .

He used to buy several portions of chippy chips and gravy portions then heat them up during the week..an absolute legend

Who's Funky?

[CleggHall]

Pepper moved to pro at Rochdale after Burnley, a rogue Aussie who knew every trick in the book, testing every umpire’s patience. Ironically became a 1st Class umpire on retiring, lived (and died) in Rochdale. Bowled Bradman as a youngster which destroyed his prospects for Test cricket.

[Clarets4me]

The ( apocryphal ? ) story I read about Cec Pepper was from his first season when, as " CleggHall " has said, he was trying the patience of the League's Umpires, and was told that he was getting a reputation for such ...

The next game he had 2 LBW shouts turned down, and snatched his sweater off the Umpire before marching off to field muttering expletives as he went. Having thought things over, when handing his sweater to the Umpire at the start of his next over, he said ...

" Sorry about before, Ump, I just get carried away, I don't mean to be offensive " .. " Don't worry Lad " replied the Umpire " We don't mind a chap who speaks his mind round 'ere " Pepper smiled, " Very good of you to see it like that, mate ". The fourth ball of Pepper's next over smashed into the batman's front pad, and Pepper turned his ample frame ... " Howzaaat ? "

" Not out, you fat Australian p***k ! " ...

[ŽižkovClaret]

Among all this talk of the best pro, has there been a better amateur than Blez?

[Bordeauxclaret]

He’s up there but I’d say there has been better than him.

The quality was undoubtedly higher in years gone by.

[ŽižkovClaret]

He’s up there but I’d say there has been better than him.

The quality was undoubtedly higher in years gone by.

I'd be interested to read an all time Lancs League amateur XI if someone has written it

[ClaretTony]

The ( apocryphal ? ) story I read about Cec Pepper was from his first season when, as " CleggHall " has said, he was trying the patience of the League's Umpires, and was told that he was getting a reputation for such ...

The next game he had 2 LBW shouts turned down, and snatched his sweater off the Umpire before marching off to field muttering expletives as he went. Having thought things over, when handing his sweater to the Umpire at the start of his next over, he said ...

" Sorry about before, Ump, I just get carried away, I don't mean to be offensive " .. " Don't worry Lad " replied the Umpire " We don't mind a chap who speaks his mind round 'ere " Pepper smiled, " Very good of you to see it like that, mate ". The fourth ball of Pepper's next over smashed into the batman's front pad, and Pepper turned his ample frame ... " Howzaaat ? "

" Not out, you fat Australian p***k ! " ...

The former Burnley player Jack Schofield is a good friend of mine. Jack’s 91 now but made his Burnley debut in 1950 when he was 17. He told me once that he learned such a vocabulary from Pep that had he known, his dad wouldn’t have allowed him to play.

Always said that he should have been an Aussie great but didn’t play because Bradman put a stop to it.

[Burnley1989]

He’s up there but I’d say there has been better than him.

The quality was undoubtedly higher in years gone by.

I admire him for sticking around when Lowerhouse weren’t a very good side for a very long time, he could no doubt have been winning trophy’s elsewhere.
Certainly a league legend

[ClaretTony]

I'd be interested to read an all time Lancs League amateur XI if someone has written it

Some very good amateur batsmen on that list. The Knowles pair (dad & son) at Haslingden are both up there despite the obnoxious support of Blackburn. Dad even changed his name from Brian to Bryan as a tribute to Bryan Douglas.

Peter Wood probably gets it for me. What an exceptional batsman he was for Rawtenstall.

[arise_sir_charge]

He’s up there but I’d say there has been better than him.

The quality was undoubtedly higher in years gone by.

I’m not convinced the amateurs were better in the past. The top division now is pretty much semi professional in approach.

[FCBurnley]

No cricket this weekend ? Or have House lost ?

[Hopey]

Check the scorecard pal. There’s plenty of internet in Lowerhouse.

[FCBurnley]

Big partnership by Duckworth and Lewis lol

[Burnley1989]

Big partnership by Duckworth and Lewis lol

Burnley 125 from 42

Lowerhouse 119 from 25.4

Thinking you might be clutching there

[FCBurnley]

Burnley only had 5 down with pro 41 not out. House 8 down. Pretty clear who would have won without the rain

[Hopey]

Burnley only had 5 down with pro 41 not out. House 8 down. Pretty clear who would have won without the rain

If my auntie had balls she’d be my uncle.

[FCBurnley]

If my auntie had balls she’d be my uncle.

Not in this day and age lol

[Burnley1989]

An important win without Hawkey, Still anyone of about 6 in with a chance at half way stage, I've strangely got a feeling Tod might be the suprise package, the bowling points Column usually tells a good story.

[FCBurnley]

If my auntie had balls she’d be my uncle.

Not in this day and age lol

[arise_sir_charge]

Burnley only had 5 down with pro 41 not out. House 8 down. Pretty clear who would have won without the rain

If only there was some internationally recognised standard for determining the appropriate scores in such circumstances.

[Andreshotboots]

Who's Funky?

Colin Miller

[Somethingfishy]

Burnley only had 5 down with pro 41 not out. House 8 down. Pretty clear who would have won without the rain

Burnley had only 8 overs left and had 125. House wouldn't in all likelihood have lost 8 wickets by the 25 over point if batting a full 50. It turned to akin a T20 for House.
Theres a lot of ifs and buts but going off how Burnley were restricted originally id say House were edging it before the rain.
Some silly T20 type reverse sweeping going on....wickets being chucked. No way that happens in a 50 chase. Well I'd like to think anyway.

[Andreshotboots]

I knew there was a fourth but I couldn’t think of him. It’s some achievement given the number of games in a Lancashire League season.

Even to this day he still reminds me when I speak with him.. I dropped a slip catch off him when he was on 99 wickets!! Luckily he got his 100th shortly afterwards..

He said it was a dolly, I said it was a crap half volley that didn't deserve a wicket anyway.

[Andreshotboots]

I’m not convinced the amateurs were better in the past. The top division now is pretty much semi professional in approach.

Having played in both eras I'd agree. There were some exceptional players back in the golden days undoubtedly, but teams also had nothing more than decent cricketers in their sides too like today's sides have.

I'd say the standard did drop for a spell for a while in recent history, but I'd say it's right back up there now and there are some top quality cricketers around, especially with the bat.

[arise_sir_charge]

Having played in both eras I'd agree. There were some exceptional players back in the golden days undoubtedly, but teams also had nothing more than decent cricketers in their sides too like today's sides have.

I'd say the standard did drop for a spell for a while in recent history, but I'd say it's right back up there now and there are some top quality cricketers around, especially with the bat.

That’s interesting coming from someone like you who’s been there and done it.

Undoubtedly the pros were more “known” but that’s just circumstance and the advent of franchise or contracted cricket etc. There are still good pros now but clearly not at the level we’ve seen in the past.

[Quickenthetempo]

If only there was some internationally recognised standard for determining the appropriate scores in such circumstances.

Not sure it's as simple as that. Some leagues/competitions have 'wickets lost' involved in the calculations.

The NWCL play cricket live page was showing allsorts of different targets today in different games.

Padiham's scorecard read. After Baxenden batted 37 overs for 91, we had to chase 92 in the full 45 overs.
Luckily Jonny Whitehead knocked them off in 10 overs to put any doubts to bed.

[arise_sir_charge]

Not sure it's as simple as that. Some leagues/competitions have 'wickets lost' involved in the calculations.

The NWCL play cricket live page was showing allsorts of different targets today in different games.

Padiham's scorecard read. After Baxenden batted 37 overs for 91, we had to chase 92 in the full 45 overs.
Luckily Jonny Whitehead knocked them off in 10 overs to put any doubts to bed.

Why don’t they use Duckworth Lewis?

It just works.

Too many rain affected LL games were decided by the toss. It’s still a factor but not anywhere near as crucial with DL now in play,

[Somethingfishy]

Why don’t they use Duckworth Lewis?

It just works.

Too many rain affected LL games were decided by the toss. It’s still a factor but not anywhere near as crucial with DL now in play,

They still are really. If everyone knows it will be a rain affected game then it really helps to bat second and so the toss becomes important. We won it today and put Burnley in. Last week for some reason we batted despite the forecast. Clitheroe captain Peter Dibb was fielding near us and was asked. He would have put us in and he said it was a no brainer with the forecast rain.
It's no guarantee but i think its a big advantage.

[Quickenthetempo]

Why don’t they use Duckworth Lewis?

It just works.

Too many rain affected LL games were decided by the toss. It’s still a factor but not anywhere near as crucial with DL now in play,

I'm not sure what they use, but every side bar one who won the toss chose to bowl first.

Backfired on Read though. Kearsley got 290 in 36 overs and they had to chase that down in 26 overs.

[arise_sir_charge]

They still are really. If everyone knows it will be a rain affected game then it really helps to bat second and so the toss becomes important. We won it today and put Burnley in. Last week for some reason we batted despite the forecast. Clitheroe captain Peter Dibb was fielding near us and was asked. He would have put us in and he said it was a no brainer with the forecast rain.
It's no guarantee but i think its a big advantage.

I think there is still an advantage but going back a few years it literally decided a game.

You could be well set at 80-0 from 20 and the tin would kill you. There was no allowance for a team setting a game up.

Now you can go out and bay as you would and know that if the rain does come you aren’t unduly shafted.

I think by the old rules, Lowerhosue would have had to chase about 100 today. That’s not enough.

[Dressinggown]

House rarely put the opponents to bat if we win the toss.

Today, we restricted many runs by virtue of our fielding set up.

It was squeaky bum time at the end but we managed it well and took the points.

[Andreshotboots]

That’s interesting coming from someone like you who’s been there and done it.

Undoubtedly the pros were more “known” but that’s just circumstance and the advent of franchise or contracted cricket etc. There are still good pros now but clearly not at the level we’ve seen in the past.

I think we also fall into the trap that as the years pass, former players get better and better and the modern ones aren't deemed as good.

If you look at the stats though of former players from that era, many aren't that amazing.

I've no doubt at all that somebody like Ben Heap from Lowerhouse, the Gale brothers from Walsden just as a couple of examples would have been highly successful playing in the 80's and 90's if they'd have been around then..

Something that I do also bring up when asked this question regarding comparing era's is that the weather certainly seemed better decades ago, which produced better pitches to play on. The last few years that I played before I retired some of the pitches were shocking, bordering on dangerous due to the terribly wet summers we seemed to have for many years on the trot.

[arise_sir_charge]

They still are really. If everyone knows it will be a rain affected game then it really helps to bat second and so the toss becomes important. We won it today and put Burnley in. Last week for some reason we batted despite the forecast. Clitheroe captain Peter Dibb was fielding near us and was asked. He would have put us in and he said it was a no brainer with the forecast rain.
It's no guarantee but i think its a big advantage.

Just spotted, Dibb lost a game winning the toss and batting second today.

[dsr]

Why don’t they use Duckworth Lewis?

It just works.

Too many rain affected LL games were decided by the toss. It’s still a factor but not anywhere near as crucial with DL now in play,

The Lancashire League do use Duckworth Lewis.

[bfcmik]

D-L is strange though Lowerhouse target of 118 in 27 overs was only 7 runs short of the 42 over score for Burnley. Burnley also got 5 bowling points for ?????

[arise_sir_charge]

The Lancashire League do use Duckworth Lewis.

Yes they do. If you read the thread we’re discussing the merits of DL and my post was asking about the Ribb League.

[arise_sir_charge]

D-L is strange though Lowerhouse target of 118 in 27 overs was only 7 runs short of the 42 over score for Burnley. Burnley also got 5 bowling points for ?????

That’s because it factors in that things may have been different innings wise without the rain interruption. It sort of allows teams to bat as they would normally without the threat of being shafted by rain. In fact losing wickets trying to pile on runs with rain coming can reduce the projected score, the theory being you wouldn’t score as many with fewer wickets to play with.

The bowling points are for taking 8 wickets. It was adjusted this year to take into account the fact that taking the bulk of the wickets in a shorter timeframe deserves recognition.

[dsr]

D-L is strange though Lowerhouse target of 118 in 27 overs was only 7 runs short of the 42 over score for Burnley. Burnley also got 5 bowling points for ?????

The theory of D-L is a two stage process. First they work out what Burnley would have been expected to get from their full 50 overs (so the last 8 would be expected to score more in the late slog) and then they work out what Lowerhouse's equivalent target would be bearing in mind they still have the full 10 wickets but know how many overs they have.

Bowling points are for 5-6-7-8-9 wickets if you have the full 50 overs available, but as the overs reduce, so does the number of wickets you need. At the minimum 20, the first bowling points come at 2 wickets.

What DL doesn't do is make allowance for whether the pro is out or not. So make sure the pro bats early if rain is forecast!

[Bordeauxclaret]

Seems to be a long of complaining about D/L from various teams this weekend. Not sure why.

If anyone can come up with a better solution I’m sure the authorities would be all ears.


Rain alters the game dramatically most of the time but there’s not an awful lot you can do about it.

[Andreshotboots]

I think DL is the fairest option available.

Obviously cricket is such a strange game, no mathematical theory can predict a hatrick, or somebody smashing 25 off an over, but we have to use something.

More often than not though, as it's been for decades luck is usually involved in making the correct decision at the toss in terms of the weather..

[arise_sir_charge]

Duckworth-Lewis is the fairest method I have seen as it factors in the overall state of play at the point rain intervenes. Much fairer than anything that’s gone before it.

Some people also complain about the LL bonus points system but I think it’s very good, it encourages positive play from all and rewards a team for contributing to a close game.

[ClaretTony]

DLS might not seem fair to some but I can't think of a better method.

I think the LL just used to average things out. Had that been the case yesterday in the Burnley v Lowerhouse game, Lowerhouse would have needed just over 80 to win which would have been ridiculous.

Nothing can be considered fair I suppose when the calculators come out, and Burnley could point to the fact that they missed arguably their most productive eight overs while still having the pro at the crease. That's how it is. DLS is considered the best method now right at the top of the game so there can be no arguments with it as unfair as it might seem at times.

[sjb]

Yes they do. If you read the thread we’re discussing the merits of DL and my post was asking about the Ribb League.

As a point of interest, the Ribblesdale League doesn't exist any more. It merged with the Bolton League to form the North West Cricket League this year with a 24 team Senior League which will be split into 2 divisions of 12 next season. The Bolton teams seem to be much stronger with only 4 ex Ribb League teams currently in the top half. Little Lever are the outstanding side thus far with Darren Lehmann's son Jake an excellent pro.

I understand Settle, the most successful Ribb League side in recent years, are not happy with the travelling & will be joining the Northern League next year.