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Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:07 pm
by Commy
I don't blame the ref for the sending off, I blame whoever is on VAR. I thought it was a red in real time but changed my mind when I saw the replay.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:08 pm
by Commy
arise_sir_charge wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 5:56 pm
Josh Windass gave arguably the most ungracious interview I’ve seen post game. Came across as a right tosser.
Getting slated on Twitter but I doubt he will care.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:09 pm
by Vegas Claret
claretspice wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 5:46 pm
1.
Its not clear to me he made an error, and if he did Its an honest and understandable one in real time.
There are loads of ex pro's all over social media that are staggered he didn't give the penalty then sent off Phillips, it's one GIGANTIC error compounded by a second
2.
Lots happened after that, including Barnsley missing chances.
They could have scored the pen, gone one up and the sending off probably doesn't happen
3.
Its outrageous to target one individual like that. Refs have an impossible job and deserve a little more respect. Its just unpleasant and nasty.
I agree, I should have said Robinson and the VAR (My Ire is more aimed at the VAR so you are correct with that, my targeting specifically of the on field ref was probably unfair, I should have said they were inept other than the linesmen who did their job correctly)However, it's not unpleasant and nasty, you are just making things up
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:10 pm
by Duffer_
Extracts from IFAB VAR protocol and principles below. Where does it say a ref
cannot ask to see a TV replay to confirm their on-field decision?
https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/vid ... principles
"4. Only the referee can initiate a ‘review’; the VAR (and other match officials) can only recommend a ‘review’ to the referee."
"Review
The referee can initiate a ‘review’ for a potential ‘clear and obvious error’ or ‘serious missed incident’ when:
the VAR (or another match official) recommends a ‘review’
the referee suspects that something serious has been ‘missed’
...
For subjective decisions, e.g. intensity of a foul challenge, interference at offside, handball considerations, an ‘on-field review’ (OFR) is appropriate."
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:11 pm
by Commy
It does make you wonder about the 'big' team bias though after the Huddersfield v Nottingham Forest match last year when Huddersfield weren't given more than one decision.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:13 pm
by claretspice
Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 5:49 pm
give over, stonewall penalty not given and it totally changes the game. Robinson has been woeful all season in the Championship and yet he gets given the final. Why does the Championship final get Michael Oliver and yet today they get Robinson and a VAR official who bottled it. It's not vindictive and like I said, choose your words carefully.
Choose your words, and your sentiments, wisely. I'm comfortable defending an honest bloke with whom I disagreed but whose instant decision I understand and sympathise with.
You've already contradicted yourself in acknowledging the role of VAR, if indeed there was an error.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:14 pm
by Casper2
arise_sir_charge wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 5:56 pm
Josh Windass gave arguably the most ungracious interview I’ve seen post game. Came across as a right tosser.
Chip off the old block
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:16 pm
by Silkyskills1
claretspice wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 5:46 pm
1. Its not clear to me he made an error, and if he did Its an honest and understandable one in real time.
2. Lots happened after that, including Barnsley missing chances.
3. Its outrageous to target one individual like that. Refs have an impossible job and deserve a little more respect. Its just unpleasant and nasty.
Let's make it quite clear refs have a sometimes difficult.job but it is NOT impossible.
Your second point about Barnsley ' missing chances' is absolutely irrelevant
Your first point about his decision being' honest and understandable' again is irrelevant. He got it wrong and when it went to VAR there was no way they were going to challenge him in a game being watched by so many people. The whole VAR situation is crass, not worthy of what it represents and has done nothing to advance the game in this country.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:19 pm
by roperclaret
claretspice wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 5:42 pm
This is rubbish, nasty and vindictive and should be called out as such. Inexcusable.
You’re so right. 50% Robinson and 50% the numpty on VAR
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:19 pm
by Vegas Claret
claretspice wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 6:13 pm
Choose your words, and your sentiments, wisely. I'm comfortable defending an honest bloke with whom I disagreed but whose instant decision I understand and sympathise with.
You've already contradicted yourself in acknowledging the role of VAR, if indeed there was an error.
You'll have to explain how I contradicted myself, I said the ref was shite and the VAR bottled two simple decisions - tell me where I'm wrong ?
I have zero sympathy for anyone at the PGMOL when they get basic decisions wrong week after week as they all have huge consequences. Their ineptitude today cost Barnsley 8 million straight off the bat. You can sympathize with them as much as you want, we are all aware the on field ref only has one look but that's what the VAR is there for - they are a team and work as a team so have the collectively responsibility to get it right. My sympathy lies with those at Barnsley who may no longer have employment because the club just missed out on 8 million.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:24 pm
by Duffer_
The PL's VAR FAQ states: "For subjective decisions, either the referee informs the VAR that a decision should be reviewed or the VAR identifies a “clear and obvious error” in one of the four match-changing situations and communicates this to the referee."
I think this, along with the IFAB guidelines, dispels the myth that the ref couldn't have had another look if he had wanted to. It was remiss, you could say arrogant, of him to not take advantage of this opportunity given the importance of the decision.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:27 pm
by Woodleyclaret
Another great performance by a Clarets loanee
Bobby Thomas was excellent
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:33 pm
by Vegas Claret
Woodleyclaret wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 6:27 pm
Another great performance by a Clarets loanee
Bobby Thomas was excellent
he was very good, makes Barton's comments about him look foolish
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:42 pm
by boatshed bill
Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 6:33 pm
he was very good, makes Barton's comments about him look foolish
What did Barton say about him?
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:55 pm
by claretspice
Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 6:19 pm
You'll have to explain how I contradicted myself, I said the ref was shite and the VAR bottled two simple decisions - tell me where I'm wrong ?
I have zero sympathy for anyone at the PGMOL when they get basic decisions wrong week after week as they all have huge consequences. Their ineptitude today cost Barnsley 8 million straight off the bat. You can sympathize with them as much as you want, we are all aware the on field ref only has one look but that's what the VAR is there for - they are a team and work as a team so have the collectively responsibility to get it right. My sympathy lies with those at Barnsley who may no longer have employment because the club just missed out on 8 million.
You said, and I quote, the outcome was "100% down to Tim Robinson". If you think VAR was also to blame for the outcome then you cannot possibly think it was 100% Robinson's fault.
You're clearly doubling down on this so I'll leave you to it. But I'd argue everyone should be more temperate in the language they use about refs. We need more good refs but the way football fans react towards refs is hardly going to encourage that outcome.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:57 pm
by KRBFC
Commy wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 6:11 pm
It does make you wonder about the 'big' team bias though after the Huddersfield v Nottingham Forest match last year when Huddersfield weren't given more than one decision.
You mean the game which has now led to VAR being introduced to all play off finals? Var wasn’t available during the Forest Huddersfield games.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 6:58 pm
by Elizabeth
I can’t remember you commenting on the Rate the Ref threads Spice where almost on a weekly basis refs are torn to shreds. I suspect something has driven you to take such a exceptionally strong stance on this match
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:00 pm
by claretspice
Elizabeth wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 6:58 pm
I can’t remember you commenting on the Rate the Ref threads Spice where almost on a weekly basis refs are torn to shreds. I suspect something has driven you to take such a exceptionally strong stance on this match
You need to go back and re read those threads then. I regularly comment in defence of the official. I can't abide the "othering" of referees on social media. They're human beings doing their job to the best of their ability and we need to encourage more people to take it up, not create a hostile culture.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:01 pm
by RVclaret
KRBFC wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 6:57 pm
You mean the game which has now led to VAR being introduced to all play off finals? Var wasn’t available during the Forest Huddersfield games.
Yes it was.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:02 pm
by Commy
KRBFC wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 6:57 pm
You mean the game which has now led to VAR being introduced to all play off finals? Var wasn’t available during the Forest Huddersfield games.
Never mentioned VAR.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:05 pm
by KRBFC
RVclaret wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 7:01 pm
Yes it was.
Oh it was
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:07 pm
by Elizabeth
claretspice wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 7:00 pm
You need to go back and re read those threads then. I regularly comment in defence of the official. I can't abide the "othering" of referees on social media. They're human beings doing their job to the best of their ability and we need to encourage more people to take it up, not create a hostile culture.
Fair enough , I cringe reading those threads and many times wish someone had the guts to tell the posters and Tony that it seems simply a thread to bash refs . I hope the thread doesn’t continue next season but suspect it will. I will definitely now be looking for you to defend each ref like you’ve defended the ref today
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:11 pm
by StayingDown4Ever
claretspice wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 6:55 pm
You said, and I quote, the outcome was "100% down to Tim Robinson". If you think VAR was also to blame for the outcome then you cannot possibly think it was 100% Robinson's fault.
You're clearly doubling down on this so I'll leave you to it. But I'd argue everyone should be more temperate in the language they use about refs. We need more good refs but the way football fans react towards refs is hardly going to encourage that outcome.
He’s proper humiliated you there, Vegas Claret.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:11 pm
by roperclaret
It’s clearly a tough job. But if I made as many wrong decisions as most refs I’d be getting my P45. The problem is that there is such a small pool they can’t be punished for underperforming
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:20 pm
by Elizabeth
StayingDown4Ever wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 7:11 pm
He’s proper humiliated you there, Vegas Claret.
Now if anyone is in any doubt about how to recognise a troll please study this post carefully. There are much cleverer trolls on here
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:34 pm
by boatshed bill
Elizabeth wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 7:20 pm
Now if anyone is in any doubt about how to recognise a troll please study this post carefully. There are much cleverer trolls on here
Lizzie, enlighten me. How does one recognise a troll? Norwegian sort of ogre?
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:57 pm
by Elizabeth
Hi Bill , one sure sign is that they don’t let a topic go . In this case it is simply a case of goading one poster against another.
Then there are the others that act thick but the worse sort tend to live on boats Bill, watch out for them
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:58 pm
by agreenwood
Two poor decisions went against Barnsley today. They can feel hard done by.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 7:59 pm
by boatshed bill
Elizabeth wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 7:57 pm
Hi Bill , one sure sign is that they don’t let a topic go . In this case it is simply a case of goading one poster against another.
Then there are the others that act thick but the worse sort tend to live on boats Bill, watch out for them
TBH I think a lot of people take themselves far too seriously. I guess it's a social media thing.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 8:13 pm
by FCBurnley
At the end of the day any team who gets 96 points deserved to be promoted and I was supporting Duffers Barnsley
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 8:20 pm
by elwaclaret
FCBurnley wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 8:13 pm
At the end of the day any team who gets 96 points deserved to be promoted and I was supporting Duffers Barnsley
My sentiment exactly.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 8:24 pm
by Vegas Claret
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 8:24 pm
by EarbyClaret
Would have been harsh on Wednesday given their performance over 46 games although really wanted Barnsley to win - but not as much as I wanted Carlisle to win yesterday
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 8:38 pm
by DanH90
claretspice wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 5:46 pm
1. Its not clear to me he made an error, and if he did Its an honest and understandable one in real time.
2. Lots happened after that, including Barnsley missing chances.
3. Its outrageous to target one individual like that. Refs have an impossible job and deserve a little more respect. Its just unpleasant and nasty.
When Tim Robinson inevitably read this messageboard I’m sure he will be shocked and appalled by the nasty and vindictive comments made about him.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 9:17 pm
by boatshed bill
DanH90 wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 8:38 pm
When Tim Robinson inevitably read this messageboard I’m sure he will be shocked and appalled by the nasty and vindictive comments made about him.
Yes, he'll probably be so wracked with guilt that he'll donate his fee to charity.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 9:25 pm
by Vegas Claret
claretspice wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 6:55 pm
You said, and I quote, the outcome was "100% down to Tim Robinson". If you think VAR was also to blame for the outcome then you cannot possibly think it was 100% Robinson's fault.
You're clearly doubling down on this so I'll leave you to it. But I'd argue everyone should be more temperate in the language they use about refs. We need more good refs but the way football fans react towards refs is hardly going to encourage that outcome.
you clearly can't read, I'd already retracted that before this post of yours above. Howard Webb has a lot of work to do
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 9:33 pm
by Lancasterclaret
When you've run the line or refereed a kids game, then you tend to have a lot more respect for refs and linesmen
I'm not going to criticise the ref or VAR, but the more they showed of the penalty, the more of a penalty it got, and the more they showed the red card, the less of a red card it got
It must be very tough for refs with only one quick look at stuff, but there isn't that excuse available to the VAR official
There are always going to be issues with stuff that looks borderline, but you'd have hoped by now they would have sorted out so the VAR issues don't ruin or change games
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 9:51 pm
by Vegas Claret
Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 9:33 pm
When you've run the line or refereed a kids game, then you tend to have a lot more respect for refs and linesmen
I'm not going to criticise the ref or VAR, but the more they showed of the penalty, the more of a penalty it got, and the more they showed the red card, the less of a red card it got
It must be very tough for refs with only one quick look at stuff, but there isn't that excuse available to the VAR official
There are always going to be issues with stuff that looks borderline, but you'd have hoped by now they would have sorted out so the VAR issues don't ruin or change games
There is too much money riding on it to get basic decisions wrong, today's officiating bar the linesman was dreadful. There is simply no excuse for what we saw today
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 9:54 pm
by Goody1975
The problem with VAR is you can have identical incidents on two separate matches that end up with different decisions, when these are game changing decisions you have to question, what is the point of VAR at all?
The powers that be, don't want to re-referee games and that is understandable but if decisions aren't constant then they might as well remove VAR for subjective decisions and leave every decision of that kind with the on field officials.
The biggest issue is the amount of contact for penalties, the Mane penalty last season where there is little or no contact remains a penalty but today isn't given, either get involved at Stockley Park or just turn off the monitors and play cards instead.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 10:02 pm
by Vegas Claret
Goody1975 wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 9:54 pm
The biggest issue is the amount of contact for penalties, the Mane penalty last season where there is little or no contact remains a penalty but today isn't given, either get involved at Stockley Park or just turn off the monitors and play cards instead.
compare the one Bruno Fernandez got last week to the one Barnsley didn't get, it's scandalous
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 10:14 pm
by Goody1975
Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 10:02 pm
compare the one Bruno Fernandez got last week to the one Barnsley didn't get, it's scandalous
We get told that the threshold referee's allow for fouls has increased but then they allow a player to engineer/win a penalty for their team. Set the threshold in the area even higher to prevent cheats prospering and you might have a spectacle that supporters respect.
The authorities are spineless, remember the grappling in the area being a penalty? Mike Dean gives two spot kicks on the opening weekend at Stoke and two weeks later the directive is shelved. What about the three men around the referee seeing the third player carded? That again was a fad that lasted a couple of weeks and then isn't administered anymore.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 10:25 pm
by Eyesofblue2
ClaretTony wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 5:13 pm
And the ‘Barry’ Bannan is doing my head in now.
There's about as much chance of the comms calling him Bannon as there is of them calling Kieffer Moore just plain Moore. That one has been doing my head in all season.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 11:50 pm
by Silkyskills1
FCBurnley wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 8:13 pm
At the end of the day any team who gets 96 points deserved to be promoted and I was supporting Duffers Barnsley
No need for play-offs then.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 11:51 pm
by Vegas Claret
Goody1975 wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 10:14 pm
We get told that the threshold referee's allow for fouls has increased but then they allow a player to engineer/win a penalty for their team. Set the threshold in the area even higher to prevent cheats prospering and you might have a spectacle that supporters respect.
The authorities are spineless, remember the grappling in the area being a penalty? Mike Dean gives two spot kicks on the opening weekend at Stoke and two weeks later the directive is shelved. What about the three men around the referee seeing the third player carded? That again was a fad that lasted a couple of weeks and then isn't administered anymore.
spot on Goody as usual, it's not good enough when people's livelihoods are depending on them getting decisions correct
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Mon May 29, 2023 11:54 pm
by Vegas Claret
StayingDown4Ever wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 7:11 pm
He’s proper humiliated you there, Vegas Claret.
another who can't read, crack on
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 12:41 am
by dsr
CrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 5:46 pm
Feel so sorry for Barnsley. Robinson is a homer as we felt at Sunderland and Blackburn, Wednesday were the big club so virtually at home today with all their fans.
The decisions were poor refereeing decisions by Robinson not VAR initially. I am in a minority of one with the penalty so will rewatch that later with my glasses on, but the red card we all agree on and that decided the game because they ran out of legs by the end.
Minority of two. I couldn't see why it should be a penalty - it looked to me like both players tried to kick the ball and both missed it, and both kicked each other. Possibly the Barnsley man got a glancing blow on the ball, but not enough to make any difference.
The problem with the red card is that VAR has fashions, and its currently fashionable approach is to look for ways that the referee might be said to be right. If VAR believe no ref could have given a red card, they will intervene; if they believe that 1 ref in 10 would have given it, they will let it ride. What they ought to do in these 1 in 10 cases, is tell the ref to go and have another look. Let him make his decision on a fuller array of evidence.
(You'd think the way the Sheffield man was so obviously pretending to be hurt might have given the ref a hint that it wasn't so bad.)
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 12:42 am
by dsr
[duplicate]
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 1:01 am
by Vegas Claret
dsr wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 12:41 am
Minority of two. I couldn't see why it should be a penalty - it looked to me like both players tried to kick the ball and both missed it, and both kicked each other. Possibly the Barnsley man got a glancing blow on the ball, but not enough to make any difference.
The problem with the red card is that VAR has fashions, and its currently fashionable approach is to look for ways that the referee might be said to be right. If VAR believe no ref could have given a red card, they will intervene; if they believe that 1 ref in 10 would have given it, they will let it ride. What they ought to do in these 1 in 10 cases, is tell the ref to go and have another look. Let him make his decision on a fuller array of evidence.
(You'd think the way the Sheffield man was so obviously pretending to be hurt might have given the ref a hint that it wasn't so bad.)
It's about as stonewall as you can get
https://twitter.com/SkyFootball/status/ ... 22592?s=20
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 4:54 am
by Eyesofblue2
Wouldn't it have been more prudent for Mr Robinson to have given a yellow and then let VAR have a look at it. Given the importance of the game surely it would have been better to err on the side of caution and give the game every chance to proceed as eleven a side. I suspect a better referee than Mr Robinson might have done this. Or maybe not.
Re: Barnsley v Owls Playoff
Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 5:26 am
by Vegas Claret
Eyesofblue2 wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 4:54 am
Wouldn't it have been more prudent for Mr Robinson to have given a yellow and then let VAR have a look at it. Given the importance of the game surely it would have been better to err on the side of caution and give the game every chance to proceed as eleven a side. I suspect a better referee than Mr Robinson might have done this. Or maybe not.
well like I said earlier, the Championship play-off game had Michael Oliver, a ref that uses VAR every single week and yet the League one and two finals get lads who rarely if at all have used it - it stinks