• FA Cup Final - City Vs Utd

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:47 pm**

bumba wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:45 pm
Isn't handball supposed to be deliberate?

No. I posted the rules a couple of mins ago.

I think most penalties these days are given due to, apparently, being in an unnatural position whether deliberate or not. But as many have said, the definition and interpretation of that rule is close to nonsense.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:47 pm**

Using common sense leads to inconsistent decision making though, which is worse for the game.
As ridiculous as the decision was, it was at least correct. Everyone knows that that is a penalty, just like everyone knows it shouldn't be.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:47 pm**

Thanks for sharing that Pickles, I would still count the second category as deliberate since you don't accidentally move your arm in an unnatural position to make yourself bigger, but maybe that is semantics. One thing I'm sure of is that it shouldn't have been a penalty against Grealish whatever rules are written down.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:49 pm**

Pen - harsh but it is a pen. Arm is in an unnatural position. The time it takes to go to VAR is a joke though. VAR needs a rethink.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:49 pm**

Roosterbooster wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:41 pm
That's not the rule though

In the specific act of play, his arm was in a natural position, as a consequence of his movement to defend the long ball

I used the phrase “unnaturally bigger” and that was the wording in the rule you attached, so I agree that is the issue. Where I disagree with those on here claiming it was natural is because his arm was high while jumping then he lowered it, but then raised it again. It looked odd and I suspect why it was given.

Silly boy. They all know to keep their arms down and as I say he had lowered it already.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:49 pm**

claretinkorea wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:47 pm
Thanks for sharing that Pickles, I would still count the second category as deliberate since you don't accidentally move your arm in an unnatural position to make yourself bigger, but maybe that is semantics. One thing I'm sure of is that it shouldn't have been a penalty against Grealish whatever rules are written down.

It's definitely semantics and that's why we have these kinds of conversations every other game. It's a poorly defined rule, and interpreted even poorer.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:49 pm**

His fingers would not have touched the ball if his arm was not in the process of being raised. When his fingers touch the ball his arm is in it’s highest position. Obviously instinctively rather than deliberate.

I am sure it will be shown plenty more times at half time.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:49 pm**

England got a penalty against Italy recently when their defender stretched to head the ball, missed it and it landed on his hand. Exactly the same as this in that his hand was in a natural position for what he was doing. Neither are handball. Its not the law that's the problem, its just that referee's largely don't understand the game they referee. Anyone who has ever played football knows that is not handball.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:50 pm**

Deliberate means to move the arm towards or into the path of the ball

If you have your arm out you’re not intending for the ball to hit the arm but if it does it’s handball and a penalty

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:50 pm**

claretinkorea wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:45 pm
Indeed, it should be the intent to stop a ball with your hand that leads to a penalty. Sometimes the refs just need to use a bit of common sense although this seems to be a rare commodity.

The refs have to work with the laws of the game. As has been said, it’s the law that’s a nonsense. Once seen, that’s given.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:54 pm**

Does anybody on here know that there are NO rules. There are LAWS.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:54 pm**

Let’s not forget why the rule was changed, either. Deliberatenesses can be just as subjective as a natural position. The unfairness to the offense when a non-deliberate handball prevents a goal must also be considered.

It’s difficult to come up with a rule that is both fair and objective.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:56 pm**

Owdsyker wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:54 pm
Does anybody on here know that there are NO rules. There are LAWS.

It's a rule that the laws are laws and not rules.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:58 pm**

ClaretTony wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:50 pm
The refs have to work with the laws of the game. As has been said, it’s the law that’s a nonsense. Once seen, that’s given.

Then it becomes a self proclaiming prophecy, I dont see that as an acceptable reason. The ref was perfectly within is rights to interpret that law differently, but he didn't. The issue seems to he the fact that essentially all handballs lead to a penalty, one toenail offside means offside and a slight touch in the area means you go down as a striker...

Bit of a shame really.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:00 pm**

claretinkorea wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:58 pm
The issue seems to he the fact that essentially all handballs lead to a penalty

This is basically how I watch football now.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:00 pm**

I do however realise that trying to be rational here is blowing against the wind (and I'm not the only one that thinks that

)

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:02 pm**

I know I’m on my own with this but I’ll keep banging the drum.
Watch a high jumper and it is all about weight transference. As you rise, your arms come down. Now watch a replay and this is exactly what Grealish does but then his left arm goes up again. Pen for me.
Now Lineker has just said he has it on good authority it will be changed again before next season. There will always be a grey area and I like this as is. Keep your hands tucked away.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:02 pm**

Mad that everyone who has played and watched football, from us chumps to the pros in the studio, knows it should never be a penalty but that it was 100% a penalty.

The decision to give Casemiro a free kick when he was lucky to stay on the pitch was probably worse.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:04 pm**

NottsClaret wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:02 pm
Mad that everyone who has played and watched football, from us chumps to the pros in the studio, knows it should never be a penalty but that it was 100% a penalty.

The decision to give Casemiro a free kick when he was lucky to stay on the pitch was probably worse.

Gives us all something to talk about I suppose

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:08 pm**

claretinkorea wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:04 pm
Gives us all something to talk about I suppose

Many fans were fearful that the introduction of VAR would remove all of the after match talking points involving referee’s decision making.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:09 pm**

Of equal worthiness of debate but not mentioned on BBC1 is that neither keeper that I recall has made a save (stats imply De Gea made one) and there is constant cheating to win penalties, like KDB kicking the back of the player then falling over him.

TV should be calling that out and next season I’m going to hate it again.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:10 pm**

The penalty and some of the other decisions in Uniteds favour is everything that is wrong with the rules, VAR, officials and football in general at present. Players would rather try and win a penalty by cheating or harassing the ref than trying to score. A penalty is almost a certain goal these days and the reward far outweighs the crime.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:11 pm**

On the game, City have been quite pedestrian on the ball. Their early goal seemed to change their dynamic.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:11 pm**

CrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:09 pm
Of equal worthiness of debate but not mentioned on BBC1 is that neither keeper that I recall has made a save (stats imply De Gea made one) and there is constant cheating to win penalties, like KDB kicking the back of the player then falling over him.

TV should be calling that out and next season I’m going to hate it again.

De Gea’s save came when Haaland should have put City up 2-0.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:13 pm**

Normal service resumed. Not sure De Gea shohld be beaten there.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:14 pm**

This isn't enthusing me.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:14 pm**

Terrible defending

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:15 pm**

De Gea poor on both goals for me.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:16 pm**

City are just a second rate Burnley.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:16 pm**

A shot like that, which wasn’t the fastest/hardest, shouldn’t have beaten 3 defenders and a keeper

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:17 pm**

Fortunate bounce just over the defenders thigh but keeper should have done better

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:17 pm**

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:15 pm
De Gea poor on both goals for me.

First was in some ways forgivable so early in the game and was hit with venom, although he was very flat footed. He was very slow to get down to the second - the shot had a fair bit of top spin on it which seemed to catch him out too.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:18 pm**

Varane and Casemiro both turned away from a very weak shot meaning De Gea sees it late........but he still should have stopped it.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:19 pm**

Rileybobs wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:17 pm
First was in some ways forgivable so early in the game and was hit with venom, although he was very flat footed. He was very slow to get down to the second - the shot had a fair bit of top spin on it which seemed to catch him out too.

De Gea would have needed a rocket up his arse to save the first goal. He could have made himself look better by giving it a go, though.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:19 pm**

Defenders were wrong footed, and DeGea couldn't see it.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:27 pm**

Anyone noticed it is now impossible for commentators and pundits to mention John Stones without using the word "hybrid"?

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:30 pm**

CrosspoolClarets wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:49 pm
I used the phrase “unnaturally bigger” and that was the wording in the rule you attached, so I agree that is the issue. Where I disagree with those on here claiming it was natural is because his arm was high while jumping then he lowered it, but then raised it again. It looked odd and I suspect why it was given.

Silly boy. They all know to keep their arms down and as I say he had lowered it already.

If you watch it at full speed, it's an obvious natural movement. He twists mid-air, and as a result his arms move up. That's biomechanics. Slowing it down changes the assessment. Because it's an unnatural view of events

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:31 pm**

Pickles wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:27 pm
Anyone noticed it is now impossible for commentators and pundits to mention John Stones without using the word "hybrid"?

I haven’t noticed. But what I will say is this - how good is Stones these days? I remember the ridicule he used to get for silly mistakes. That’s gone from his game now

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:31 pm**

Rick_Muller wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:31 pm
I haven’t noticed. But what I will say is this - how good is Stones these days? I remember the ridicule he used to get for silly mistakes. That’s gone from his game now

Immense.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:33 pm**

Rick_Muller wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:31 pm
I haven’t noticed. But what I will say is this - how good is Stones these days? I remember the ridicule he used to get for silly mistakes. That’s gone from his game now

Yeah, he’s been consistently very good for quite some time now.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:38 pm**

United having a good go here. Could be a good final 20.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:41 pm**

Weghorst coming on

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:41 pm**

WW is on now ….. please score and make you worth selling

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:41 pm**

Fred finally gets a yellow

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:43 pm**

Weghorst hopefully scores with a thunderous header and proves himself to be the all rounder we know he isn't.

Hopefully Rovers will buy him rhen

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:46 pm**

Not sure why people think Weghorst’s value will change if he scores one goal.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:49 pm**

Rileybobs wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:46 pm
Not sure why people think Weghorst’s value will change if he scores one goal.

He’s worth nowt at the moment, so anything positive is bound to help!

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:50 pm**

Stones my man of the match (though it will go to Gundogan)

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:53 pm**

jos wrote: ↑
Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:49 pm
He’s worth nowt at the moment, so anything positive is bound to help!

He’s certainly not worth nowt.

Posted: **Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:55 pm**

Wout made a positive difference, Garnarcho even more, but the final ball has been appalling, especially from Bruno.

FA Cup Final - City Vs Utd

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