Jack Leach out of the Ashes
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Jack Leach out of the Ashes
The bowling injuries piling up for England. At least we don’t have a heavily condensed series to make space for the Hundred.
Who would you choose to replace him? Ahmed/Parkinson/Jacks?
Who would you choose to replace him? Ahmed/Parkinson/Jacks?
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Not Parkinson. He can't even get into Lancashire's red ball side.Milltown1882 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:19 pmThe bowling injuries piling up for England. At least we don’t have a heavily condensed series to make space for the Hundred.
Who would you choose to replace him? Ahmed/Parkinson/Jacks?
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
No loss.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
The cupboard is bare!
Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
I completely disagree. Leach is an excellent left handed spinner who has a knack of getting crucial wickets whilst also holding up an end. We also now have no other options in the spin department and you cannot win an home Ashes without a spinner. Only realistic option is Moeen or Rashid but as we all know Rashid can’t cope with the rigours of 5-day cricket………
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Joe Root will have to bowl quite a few more overs than expected
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Fair enough Ampth...cant really agree.. I feel he's a pretty ordinary bowler at test level and unlikely to be a major game changer in an ashes series. I think Swan is the guy we've yet to properly replace.Ampth7 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:22 pmI completely disagree. Leach is an excellent left handed spinner who has a knack of getting crucial wickets whilst also holding up an end. We also now have no other options in the spin department and you cannot win an home Ashes without a spinner. Only realistic option is Moeen or Rashid but as we all know Rashid can’t cope with the rigours of 5-day cricket………
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
I don't think we ever replaced Underwood.
Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Also a fair point you make regarding Swann mate. On a broader sense, this does highlight the total lack of decent spinners in the English game which has been a problem for far too long. In fairness to Leach, he has worked relentlessly on his game making him the only viable spin option available at test match level currently, which is crazy!
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Let’s face it, we’ve never been great when it comes to spinners. The English game/pitches just doesn’t/don’t encourage spinners enough to enable top class talent to come through. Best option would be to scoop up our top talent aged 16-20 and send them to the sub-continent for several years, which isn’t really a realistic option…….
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Leech has bowled well for England since Stokes has been made captain
Under Root with orthodox field placements Leech was what I called “ a bowler who bowled batters in”
With Stokes setting unorthodox field Leech has taken vital wickets in Test matches
Under Root with orthodox field placements Leech was what I called “ a bowler who bowled batters in”
With Stokes setting unorthodox field Leech has taken vital wickets in Test matches
Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
This is said a lot but the stats suggest otherwise. As.Philip Collins has written v recently: "Leach’s record – 79 wickets at 31.88 – is much better under Joe Root than under Stokes – 45 wickets at 38.22"DAVETHEVICAR wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:04 pmLeech has bowled well for England since Stokes has been made captain
Under Root with orthodox field placements Leech was what I called “ a bowler who bowled batters in”
With Stokes setting unorthodox field Leech has taken vital wickets in Test matches
Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
I'm in the blessing in disguise camp. Nice guy, but not a test class spinner and the bowler the Aussies were going to target. Problem is there are so few spinner options available - may have to go with 4 seamers and get some green tops ready.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Got to suspect Rehan Ahmed will replace him
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
This will enable us to pick a genuine quick bowler like Wood.
Our spinners aren't good enough.
Anderson, Broad, Robinson are certs if not a bit similar paced. The extra pace is needed.
Our spinners aren't good enough.
Anderson, Broad, Robinson are certs if not a bit similar paced. The extra pace is needed.
Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Stats say that Moeen Ali properly replaced Swann.
Moeen Ali’s strike rate in Test cricket is marginally better.
Moeen didn’t take as many wickets as Swann but he didn’t bowl as many overs.
He is one very underrated cricketer is Ali, not sure why.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Probably because he was expected to do a bit more with the bat -
His bowling average in tests is/was 36.66 runs per wicket vs Swann's 29.96 - quite a significant difference
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
I thought Leach was just coming into his own......tough luck.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Get Mo back, him and Root can do the spinner job between them never rated Leach
Ben Duckett
Zak Crawley
Ollie Pope
Joe Root
Ben Stokes
Harry Brook
Jonathan Bairstow
Moeen Ali
Bowl that out you Aussie c**ts
Ben Duckett
Zak Crawley
Ollie Pope
Joe Root
Ben Stokes
Harry Brook
Jonathan Bairstow
Moeen Ali
Bowl that out you Aussie c**ts
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
I'm not sure Mo Ali is mentally strong enough for a Stokes side.
Falls to pieces when the pressure is on in games.
Falls to pieces when the pressure is on in games.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Would love to see your workings on this theoryQuickenthetempo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:14 amI'm not sure Mo Ali is mentally strong enough for a Stokes side.
Falls to pieces when the pressure is on in games.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Just watching him bat when needing to hang on for a draw etc..
He's always done well when he can swing the willow freely.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
And that is the current England teams goto way of playingQuickenthetempo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:23 amJust watching him bat when needing to hang on for a draw etc..
He's always done well when he can swing the willow freely.
Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Goto batting-wise, but the issue is can we take 20 wickets? And the problem is there does not appear to be a front-line spinner capable of holding an end never mind taking wickets.
If memory serves, the Aussies beat the hell out of Mo in his last Ashes. Not sure he is the answer.
Still think 4 seamers (+Stokes and Root) and green tops is the right strategy.
If memory serves, the Aussies beat the hell out of Mo in his last Ashes. Not sure he is the answer.
Still think 4 seamers (+Stokes and Root) and green tops is the right strategy.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Looks like Stokes & Baz disagree. Ali has been approached to come out of retirement...Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:14 amI'm not sure Mo Ali is mentally strong enough for a Stokes side.
Falls to pieces when the pressure is on in games.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
There the ones in charge and who's opinion matters most.Transpennine wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:57 pmLooks like Stokes & Baz disagree. Ali has been approached to come out of retirement...
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
It's definitely a risk. Ultimately shows how weak we are in the spin department...Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:03 pmThere the ones in charge and who's opinion matters most.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
We are way short in the spinners department, but there's not many knocking about worldwide.Transpennine wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:36 pmIt's definitely a risk. Ultimately shows how weak we are in the spin department...
As previously said I would get a fast bowler like Wood in. 3 accurate bowlers in the early 80s will do well, but if it goes flat we need some extra pace.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Leach isn’t a huge loss for me as we have better seamers and leach offers nothing with the bat so he’s useless if the pitch doesn’t suit spin. Could be a miss if a pitch starts turning on day 4 or 5 - if many games go that long.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
That stat is misleading as Leach goes for more runs with Stokes captaincy as they are setting much more attacking fields now. Out of interest what are his total overs bowled for both captains?
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Moeen Ali back in the Ashes squad for the 1st 2 tests.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
You would think the ECB would look at how we could produce some world class spinners.
Leach isn’t up to it, so isn’t a great loss. Root and Ali are probably our ‘safest’ options and that says a lot about the emerging ‘talent’ in the spin department of English cricket.
I remember Bumble saying Parkinson was the best English spinner he had seen in years - I wonder what has happened with his development?
Leach isn’t up to it, so isn’t a great loss. Root and Ali are probably our ‘safest’ options and that says a lot about the emerging ‘talent’ in the spin department of English cricket.
I remember Bumble saying Parkinson was the best English spinner he had seen in years - I wonder what has happened with his development?
Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Big mistake if we play Mo.
Like Leach, I love the guy, but the Aussie's will absolutely marlmalize him - again. We simply don't have a spinner good enough to beat the Aussies (or anyone else for that matter). If we play a spinner that leaves us effectively 3 seamers and a limping Stokes to try and get 20 wickets. Play a 4th seamer not a spinner!
If we play a spinner, 4-0 Aussies, unless it rains, then 3-0.
Like Leach, I love the guy, but the Aussie's will absolutely marlmalize him - again. We simply don't have a spinner good enough to beat the Aussies (or anyone else for that matter). If we play a spinner that leaves us effectively 3 seamers and a limping Stokes to try and get 20 wickets. Play a 4th seamer not a spinner!
If we play a spinner, 4-0 Aussies, unless it rains, then 3-0.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
It starts at grass roots really - lot of average players get game time because they can ball straight and bat ok but they don’t particularly have any outstanding trait and will only ever be ‘average’helmclaret wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:39 amYou would think the ECB would look at how we could produce some world class spinners.
Leach isn’t up to it, so isn’t a great loss. Root and Ali are probably our ‘safest’ options and that says a lot about the emerging ‘talent’ in the spin department of English cricket.
I remember Bumble saying Parkinson was the best English spinner he had seen in years - I wonder what has happened with his development?
being a good spinner takes years to perfect, be it control, working on stock ball, and extras etc and in junior cricket on small boundaries you can go pretty expensive if you flight one a bit too much or go a bit short - even top edges that would be a catch on full size pitches go for a 6
I was a spinner and all this happened to me - it was only senior coaches that had been around the game for a long time that put any faith in me and eventually I started getting selected (played Burnley 2nds at 14 did quite well, sadly a bad injury prevented my progression)
That’s my theory anyway.
I can remember playing at Edenfield in an under 16 game and they put me on to bowl (off spinner) on the side where the leg side boundary must have been about 20m from the wicket, max.
I argued to be on the other end to no avail, doesn’t look good on your figures when little chips that would be routine catches are going for 6 like.
I remember going up to full size pitches and getting an absolute ton of wickets.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Moeen Ali potentially batting at 8 or 9 is a real bonus, and I think the Aussies would have tried to hammer Leach out of the attack - just as they will any other spinner (inc. Moeen), but a spinner is always a useful addition so I think that this has worked in our favour.
I doubt that any of our other spinners would be any more effective with the ball than Moeen, and he is by far the best option with the bat.
He's a way better fielder than Leach too.
(He also plays the game in the manner that Stokes and McCullum have set out)
I doubt that any of our other spinners would be any more effective with the ball than Moeen, and he is by far the best option with the bat.
He's a way better fielder than Leach too.
(He also plays the game in the manner that Stokes and McCullum have set out)
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Chris Harris hitting me for 5 sixes and 1 four in an over kind of ended my off spin career at the age of 16.CoolClaret wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:39 pmIt starts at grass roots really - lot of average players get game time because they can ball straight and bat ok but they don’t particularly have any outstanding trait and will only ever be ‘average’
being a good spinner takes years to perfect, be it control, working on stock ball, and extras etc and in junior cricket on small boundaries you can go pretty expensive if you flight one a bit too much or go a bit short - even top edges that would be a catch on full size pitches go for a 6
I was a spinner and all this happened to me - it was only senior coaches that had been around the game for a long time that put any faith in me and eventually I started getting selected (played Burnley 2nds at 14 did quite well, sadly a bad injury prevented my progression)
That’s my theory anyway.
I can remember playing at Edenfield in an under 16 game and they put me on to bowl (off spinner) on the side where the leg side boundary must have been about 20m from the wicket, max.
I argued to be on the other end to no avail, doesn’t look good on your figures when little chips that would be routine catches are going for 6 like.
I remember going up to full size pitches and getting an absolute ton of wickets.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
I think the Aussies would have gone all out to destroy Leach.nil_desperandum wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:46 pmMoeen Ali potentially batting at 8 or 9 is a real bonus, and I think the Aussies would have tried to hammer Leach out of the attack - just as they will any other spinner (inc. Moeen), but a spinner is always a useful addition so I think that this has worked in our favour.
I doubt that any of our other spinners would be any more effective with the ball than Moeen, and he is by far the best option with the bat.
He's a way better fielder than Leach too.
(He also plays the game in the manner that Stokes and McCullum have set out)
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Least you restricted him to just 5 sixes!helmclaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 11:12 pmChris Harris hitting me for 5 sixes and 1 four in an over kind of ended my off spin career at the age of 16.
I took the wicket of Alex Davies in an U16 game once in a 20 over game
He was retiring at 50 I think every game that season, no match for a flighted delivery landing in the ‘corridor of uncertainty’
Top edged it trying to slog sweep me and it spooned up to the lad at short mid off
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
My youngest is a budding leg-spinner, he spends hours each week bowling, working away on what will probably be his stock delivery, then trying to add something a bit different in. But he had to be discouraged from trying to be a fast bowler because he would never really be tall enough, and there are that many in junior cricket who simply bowl fast and straight so why not be different and become good at that.CoolClaret wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:39 pmIt starts at grass roots really - lot of average players get game time because they can ball straight and bat ok but they don’t particularly have any outstanding trait and will only ever be ‘average’
being a good spinner takes years to perfect, be it control, working on stock ball, and extras etc and in junior cricket on small boundaries you can go pretty expensive if you flight one a bit too much or go a bit short - even top edges that would be a catch on full size pitches go for a 6
I was a spinner and all this happened to me - it was only senior coaches that had been around the game for a long time that put any faith in me and eventually I started getting selected (played Burnley 2nds at 14 did quite well, sadly a bad injury prevented my progression)
That’s my theory anyway.
I can remember playing at Edenfield in an under 16 game and they put me on to bowl (off spinner) on the side where the leg side boundary must have been about 20m from the wicket, max.
I argued to be on the other end to no avail, doesn’t look good on your figures when little chips that would be routine catches are going for 6 like.
I remember going up to full size pitches and getting an absolute ton of wickets.
He's been on courses with other budding spinners, so they are out there, they just seem to be outnumbered by those who want to bowl fast.
But, the junior game isn't really set up for spinners to succeed and you see very few teams with spinners. No LBW so there is no doubt in a batters mind about missing the ball, and short boundaries don't help. Fortunately he's only been expensive in 1 out of 5 games this year, although the lack of LBW is frustrating.
Their pro also advised him to be best friends with the captain of whichever team he's in, so he gets to bowl the end he wants and gets the field he wants. So he's now started looking at the pitch before they start, to pick the end he wants.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Oddly enough during a lesson with my youngest the pro was telling him he also needs to be strong mentally, because there will come a time when he goes for more than a few runs and he will either work through it, or give up. I guess the time will be when he goes from junior cricket, to suddenly being a junior in a senior team.helmclaret wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 11:12 pmChris Harris hitting me for 5 sixes and 1 four in an over kind of ended my off spin career at the age of 16.
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
This was in an u18 game and he was Rammys overage player, the runs didn’t count.
I had taken a five-fer, so was obviously making a point
I had taken a five-fer, so was obviously making a point
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Re: Jack Leach out of the Ashes
Seems like he’s in good hands there mate with someone that knows what they’re doing.WadingInDeeper wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:25 amMy youngest is a budding leg-spinner, he spends hours each week bowling, working away on what will probably be his stock delivery, then trying to add something a bit different in. But he had to be discouraged from trying to be a fast bowler because he would never really be tall enough, and there are that many in junior cricket who simply bowl fast and straight so why not be different and become good at that.
He's been on courses with other budding spinners, so they are out there, they just seem to be outnumbered by those who want to bowl fast.
But, the junior game isn't really set up for spinners to succeed and you see very few teams with spinners. No LBW so there is no doubt in a batters mind about missing the ball, and short boundaries don't help. Fortunately he's only been expensive in 1 out of 5 games this year, although the lack of LBW is frustrating.
Their pro also advised him to be best friends with the captain of whichever team he's in, so he gets to bowl the end he wants and gets the field he wants. So he's now started looking at the pitch before they start, to pick the end he wants.
When did that lbw rule come in? I can’t recall ever having it.
Yeah the stock delivery is vital, it’s what sets you apart. It’s not meant to be flashy or whatever just really consistent - slight deviations from that is what really does people -
You probably know all this like but Warne was an absolute master at this.
Plenty of videos on YouTube of him showing his googly/flipper and stuff and how he disguised it coming out of his hand.
Yeah when I was playing youth cricket at school (pretty good school with a lot of decent cricketers) I was the only one out of the team that played rugby over cricket - didn’t do me any favours with the captain - only put me on to bowl when we were struggling.
All the best to your lad