6 June 1968: Assassination of Bobby Kennedy

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ecc
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6 June 1968: Assassination of Bobby Kennedy

Post by ecc » Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:32 pm

Please don't ruin this thread.

Bobby Kennedy was a beacon of light in the darkness which enshrouded The States in the 1960s. Whether or not he truly believed in what he said few will know but the man did give hope to a nation that had lost its way.

He made several famous speeches. The one I feel was the strongest was a somewhat impromptu speech made in Indianapolis several hours after Martin Luther King was shot dead.

Politicians rarely speak like this today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoKzCff8Zbs
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Re: 6 June 1968: Assassination of Bobby Kennedy

Post by Madpete » Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:10 pm

I was in Blackburn when I heard the news…having my hair cut somewhere near the library…it was about 1pm so 6am on the west coast.Why do the good guys get assassinated when the evil ones prosper? Nixon or Kennedy…no contest.

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Re: 6 June 1968: Assassination of Bobby Kennedy

Post by ClaretPete001 » Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:31 pm

Madpete wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:10 pm
I was in Blackburn when I heard the news…having my hair cut somewhere near the library…it was about 1pm so 6am on the west coast.Why do the good guys get assassinated when the evil ones prosper? Nixon or Kennedy…no contest.
When has it ever been 1pm in Blackburn and 6am in Blackpool?

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Re: 6 June 1968: Assassination of Bobby Kennedy

Post by elwaclaret » Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:46 pm

Bobby like JFK were very different people to their public persona’s. There has been a lot of the American martyr mythology about the Kennedy’s. They were politicians, sometimes they got stuff right but Bobby was a Hawk… played a big role in the Bay of Pigs disaster, Laos and later Vietnam escalation (propping up puppet rulers) and as a Hawk for a time seriously considered nuking China in preparation for an invasion from Taiwan into Laos… the path set by Truman (who Mao approached for help) and Eisenhower whose constant political interference created Communists out of pot heads happy in the mountains.

They had some very good speech writers… three who were with them at all times. They were fascinating people, but they were Joe’s children… hey were hardly ‘the guys’ they were the firm.

I’ve done a couple of papers on JFK with full University Access to official archives…
Interesting and complicated family.
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Re: 6 June 1968: Assassination of Bobby Kennedy

Post by Clovius Boofus » Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:45 am

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:46 pm
Laos and later Vietnam escalation (propping up puppet rulers) and as a Hawk for a time seriously considered nuking China in preparation for an invasion from Taiwan into Laos… the path set by Truman (who Mao approached for help) and Eisenhower whose constant political interference created Communists out of pot heads happy in the mountains
I blame the French. They thought they could kick on with pre-WW2 colonialism. Also, just think about what would have happened if Truman had told the French where to go after Ho Chi Minh reached out to him in 1946?The war cost over 2 million lives, on all sides, not to mention those who were maimed for life.

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Re: 6 June 1968: Assassination of Bobby Kennedy

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:15 am

Reading a book on Vietnam now

Quite striking just how much the US desire to "not to ever lose a war" influenced decision making in the US throughout their involvement

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Re: 6 June 1968: Assassination of Bobby Kennedy

Post by Silkyskills1 » Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:55 am

Madpete wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:10 pm
I was in Blackburn when I heard the news…having my hair cut somewhere near the library…it was about 1pm so 6am on the west coast.Why do the good guys get assassinated when the evil ones prosper? Nixon or Kennedy…no contest.
Good and evil, sometimes not that much to distinguish between the two. I take your point though but a study of the Kennedy clan starting with the patriarchal Joe setting the tone, is very illuminating and helps to explain a lot about them.

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Re: 6 June 1968: Assassination of Bobby Kennedy

Post by elwaclaret » Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:23 am

Clovius Boofus wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:45 am
I blame the French. They thought they could kick on with pre-WW2 colonialism. Also, just think about what would have happened if Truman had told the French where to go after Ho Chi Minh reached out to him in 1946?The war cost over 2 million lives, on all sides, not to mention those who were maimed for life.
The Chinese were allies in WW2. It was not he French that destabilised the peace after the fall of French Indochina. It was a Truman bankrolling the Roman Catholic persecution of the Buddhist population, and other political opposition…

(Only Wikki but makes the point)….

The Eisenhower administration had led the creation of the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization for precisely this sort of contingency. In this first major test, however, the United States was unable to secure the alliance’s support for intervention. Its major European powers, Great Britain and France, considered Phoumi an illegitimate ruler and supported Souvanna Phouma; they were adamantly opposed to taking military action in Laos. An interagency analysis prepared in January 1961 summarized, “Since SEATO was created to act in circumstances such as that now existing in Laos but has not acted, it casts doubt not only on its own credibility but on the reliability of the United States as its originator . . . SEATO becomes a means by which restraint is imposed on us by our allies.” As the Eisenhower administration reached its final days, the United States was faced with the prospect of unilateral military intervention in a desperate attempt to salvage the situation. Beyond the vast logistics issues associated with intervention, the insertion of U.S. forces raised the substantial risk of a U.S.-Soviet military confrontation.

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Re: 6 June 1968: Assassination of Bobby Kennedy

Post by Vino blanco » Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:12 pm

elwaclaret wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:46 pm
Bobby like JFK were very different people to their public persona’s. There has been a lot of the American martyr mythology about the Kennedy’s. They were politicians, sometimes they got stuff right but Bobby was a Hawk… played a big role in the Bay of Pigs disaster, Laos and later Vietnam escalation (propping up puppet rulers) and as a Hawk for a time seriously considered nuking China in preparation for an invasion from Taiwan into Laos… the path set by Truman (who Mao approached for help) and Eisenhower whose constant political interference created Communists out of pot heads happy in the mountains.

They had some very good speech writers… three who were with them at all times. They were fascinating people, but they were Joe’s children… hey were hardly ‘the guys’ they were the firm.

I’ve done a couple of papers on JFK with full University Access to official archives…
Interesting and complicated family.
I have to take issue with you regarding your statements that Bobby Kennedy was a hawk in the Bay of Pigs disaster, Laos and later Vietnam escalation. I grant that RFK was Attorney General in his brother’s administration from 1961 to 1964 and was acting as an advisor to JFK during the bay of Pigs operation, but he left office in 1964 to become Senator for New York in January 1965 until his death in June 1968. Laos and the escalation of Vietnam war took place under Johnson’s administration, when RFK was on the outside looking in. Johnson hated RFK, the feeling was in fact mutual, and would not have him anywhere near his cabinet, calling him “the Kennedy runt” in private circles.
RFK was in fact a strong opponent of America’s bombing of North Vietnam in particular and made speeches to this effect in his time as Senator for New York. As as a Senator he tended to stick to domestic matters such as Gun Control, Civil Rights and the War on Poverty, when asked about the Vietnamese War he was considered a dove by the Johnson Administration. Even when JFK started to send in military advisors to Vietnam, RFK was not involved in this area of policy.
I did a quick read of his Wiki biography and will now quote directly from this....as you say yourself “only wiki but still makes the point”:
“The JFK administration had backed U.S involvement in South East Asia, but RFK was not known to be involved in discussions on the Vietnam War when he was his brother’s Attorney General.
By April 1965, as a Senator, RFK was advocating a halt to the bombing to Johnson, who himself acknowledged that Kennedy played a part in influencing his choice to temporarily cease bombing the following month. RFK publicly cautioned Johnson against sending combat troops to Vietnam as early as 1965.
In December 1965, RFK advised his friend Robert Macnamara, the Defence Secretary, that he should advise Johnson to declare a ceasefire in Vietnam and a bombing pause in North Vietnam in order to take up an offer by the Algerian government to serve as an honest broker in peace talks.
In January 1966, RFK said in a speech on the Senate Floor, “If we regard bombing is the answer in Vietnam, we are headed straight for disaster”.
In March 1968, RFK called the war “the greatest kind of error” in a speech in Corvallis, Oregon.
In an interview on June 4th just hours before he was shot dead RFK continued to advocate a total change in policy towards the war in Vietnam.”
To reiterate, RFK was not in power nor had any influence on the Johnson policy in Vietnam whilst he was was Senator from 1964 to 1968, and having lived through the Vietnam War myself, watching the news and reporting every night on TV , I can never remember RFK ever being considered a hawk on Laos, Vietnam etc, just the opposite he always advocated a rapid, peaceful settlement in Vietnam.
Dear readers, please excuse the length of this post, but clarification was needed.

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Re: 6 June 1968: Assassination of Bobby Kennedy

Post by dougcollins » Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:39 pm

I was at primary school and we watched the funeral live on TV, which, looking back, seems somewhat surreal.

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Re: 6 June 1968: Assassination of Bobby Kennedy

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:17 pm

Vino blanco wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:12 pm
I have to take issue with you regarding your statements that Bobby Kennedy was a hawk in the Bay of Pigs disaster, Laos and later Vietnam escalation. I grant that RFK was Attorney General in his brother’s administration from 1961 to 1964 and was acting as an advisor to JFK during the bay of Pigs operation, but he left office in 1964 to become Senator for New York in January 1965 until his death in June 1968. Laos and the escalation of Vietnam war took place under Johnson’s administration, when RFK was on the outside looking in. Johnson hated RFK, the feeling was in fact mutual, and would not have him anywhere near his cabinet, calling him “the Kennedy runt” in private circles.
RFK was in fact a strong opponent of America’s bombing of North Vietnam in particular and made speeches to this effect in his time as Senator for New York. As as a Senator he tended to stick to domestic matters such as Gun Control, Civil Rights and the War on Poverty, when asked about the Vietnamese War he was considered a dove by the Johnson Administration. Even when JFK started to send in military advisors to Vietnam, RFK was not involved in this area of policy.
I did a quick read of his Wiki biography and will now quote directly from this....as you say yourself “only wiki but still makes the point”:
“The JFK administration had backed U.S involvement in South East Asia, but RFK was not known to be involved in discussions on the Vietnam War when he was his brother’s Attorney General.
By April 1965, as a Senator, RFK was advocating a halt to the bombing to Johnson, who himself acknowledged that Kennedy played a part in influencing his choice to temporarily cease bombing the following month. RFK publicly cautioned Johnson against sending combat troops to Vietnam as early as 1965.
In December 1965, RFK advised his friend Robert Macnamara, the Defence Secretary, that he should advise Johnson to declare a ceasefire in Vietnam and a bombing pause in North Vietnam in order to take up an offer by the Algerian government to serve as an honest broker in peace talks.
In January 1966, RFK said in a speech on the Senate Floor, “If we regard bombing is the answer in Vietnam, we are headed straight for disaster”.
In March 1968, RFK called the war “the greatest kind of error” in a speech in Corvallis, Oregon.
In an interview on June 4th just hours before he was shot dead RFK continued to advocate a total change in policy towards the war in Vietnam.”
To reiterate, RFK was not in power nor had any influence on the Johnson policy in Vietnam whilst he was was Senator from 1964 to 1968, and having lived through the Vietnam War myself, watching the news and reporting every night on TV , I can never remember RFK ever being considered a hawk on Laos, Vietnam etc, just the opposite he always advocated a rapid, peaceful settlement in Vietnam.
Dear readers, please excuse the length of this post, but clarification was needed.
I have to take issue with you regarding your statements that Bobby Kennedy was a hawk in the Bay of Pigs disaster, Laos and later Vietnam escalation.

First, I must ask where I say Bobby was involved in later Vietnam…I don’t? It was prior to Vietnam when JFK first took office. JFK was in office… when they discussed nuking China… again straight upon taking office, prior to the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

The Laos civil war ran from 1959 … so sorry you are wrong there too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laotian_Civil_War

Special forces were in the transport planes when the invasion of Laos was called off… because news of the Bay of Pigs arrived as they were ready to go




I grant that RFK was Attorney General in his brother’s administration from 1961 to 1964 and was acting as an advisor to JFK during the bay of Pigs operation, but he left office in 1964 to become Senator for New York in January 1965 until his death in June 1968. Laos and the escalation of Vietnam war took place under Johnson’s administration, when RFK was on the outside looking in. Johnson hated RFK, the feeling was in fact mutual, and would not have him anywhere near his cabinet, calling him “the Kennedy runt” in private circles.

Laos was ongoing from Truman… through Eisenhower and after JFK


RFK was in fact a strong opponent of America’s bombing of North Vietnam in particular and made speeches to this effect in his time as Senator for New York.

No idea not studied it, and after this point - the rest is simply not relevant to the period I am talking about.

I don’t mind queries/hearing argument; but taking issue with my research? Please take the time to check before you try to call me out. I have three papers on JFK’s administration, sadly they are copyright of UCLAN so I’m not allowed to publish. They are: Bay of Pigs, Laos and The Missile Crisis. I have done some work on Robert’s later career, but as I did not use it.. it’s only in deep memory and I cannot go there (I’m in the middle of some research), so I am quite prepared to accept you later comments at face value: sounds about right. LBJ was no was no worse than Truman, Eisenhower and JFK… each exacerbated the problems in turn. LBJ was hated at the time, he was a complete cretin and for that reason he’s had a lot of **** piled on his shoulders that was not his, ever since, quite often by people who should know better.

By the way you are arguing with the archives of the Pentagon, CIA, American National archive and the Kennedy Library (among others) that are credited in my references

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Re: 6 June 1968: Assassination of Bobby Kennedy

Post by Lord Beamish » Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:35 am

It’s Ted Kennedy I feel sorry for. He was the only one of the three brothers not to screw Marilyn Monroe.
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Re: 6 June 1968: Assassination of Bobby Kennedy

Post by Chuckypad » Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:53 am

Lord Beamish wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:35 am
It’s Ted Kennedy I feel sorry for. He was the only one of the three brothers not to screw Marilyn Monroe.
:lol:

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Re: 6 June 1968: Assassination of Bobby Kennedy

Post by elwaclaret » Fri Jun 09, 2023 12:22 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:35 am
It’s Ted Kennedy I feel sorry for. He was the only one of the three brothers not to screw Marilyn Monroe.
Me too, brought up as third spare behind Joe Jnr. (Died in a plane test crash during WW2), JFK and Bobby.
Joe was the athlete all rounder, JFK had to play the part despite severe spine damage, Bobby the playboy and Teddy who was never supposed to get anywhere near running for president and therefore the ‘other’ of the dynasty.

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