Just Stop Oil...

[Jakubclaret]

Can’t get my head around this, so because the NHS is in a mess Just Stop Oil have never ever caused any inconvenience to anyone?

I'm not quite sure how the NHS & ambulances are being brought into the topic when it's clearly about the just stop oil campaign, 2 separate issues.

[TheFamilyCat]

I'm not quite sure how the NHS & ambulances are being brought into the topic when it's clearly about the just stop oil campaign, 2 separate issues.

For once, I agree with you. They are two completely different issues. Some people seem determined to use one to beat the other with for some reason.

[Jakubclaret]

For once, I agree with you. They are two completely different issues. Some people seem determined to use one to beat the other with for some reason.

It makes no difference to me, but the same people who are going off topic will the first 1s to correct you when you stray. When it's convenient to them it doesn't matter the first time you do it woe betide

[TheFamilyCat]

It makes no difference to me, but the same people who are going off topic will the first 1s to correct you when you stray. When it's convenient to them it doesn't matter the first time you do it woe betide

And back to Planet Jakub.

[evensteadiereddie]

[Jakubclaret]

And back to Planet Jakub.

I prefer to call it planet reality, why don't you constructively contribute your tuppence into the just stop oil campaign, have a good day.

[evensteadiereddie]

[Bosscat]

Toothpicks available on thevtable for the removal of popcorn bits

[Lowbankclaret]

It is currently sunny here so I have just turned my immersion on and it is taking 38p/hr, I’m not totally sure how much the boiler takes per hour when heating the water.

The key with the immersion is to have it set to nice temperature, they are normally set way to hot. That wastes a lot of electric keeping it very hot. I have it set so you can just keep your hands under without it feeling too uncomfortable.

[Lowbankclaret]

Apologies, when I posted that I find it hard to believe I hadn’t read your other posts. All that including the battery was only £11k? I paid £9k for mine back in 2011 and there is no battery included, things have clearly moved on since then. I wonder if using the immersion at this time of year would be better for me too? My system is only about half of yours though. I have considered adding a battery but they don’t appear to be cheap and may not fill up quickly enough on my system.

Do you get any FIT payments?

Don’t get fit payments, just export at 15p per kWh.
Like you I did get a quote about 14 years ago. Was about £14k for a 4kw system and no batteries.

Panels are now around £250 each, they were double that 11 years ago.

Batteries are £1300 to £1400 each. I have two.

Friend of mine who thought Solar was a waste of time, saw my first two months output results.

He had 20 panels fitted, 3 batteries at 9.6kw for £14k.

He has not drawn from the grid since the 3rd week of February and does not expect to until Nov. His solar is doing 50kwh a day in this weather, exporting 40kw at 15p per kWh per day. So he is earning £6 per day.

He is south facing though.

[Lowbankclaret]

To add to the ambulance debate.
My other half had an issue about 6 weeks ago. Tingling hands and arms. Chest pain and feeling very panicked. Ambulance was here within 5 minutes.

My Mum 79 fell a week later in an assisted living place. They said it would be 6 hours before they could attend so I drove the 15 miles to get her off the floor and then took her to A and E.

Depends on how they see you as a priority. My advise lie through teeth and say you think your dying.

[Damo]

To add to the ambulance debate.
My other half had an issue about 6 weeks ago. Tingling hands and arms. Chest pain and feeling very panicked. Ambulance was here within 5 minutes.

My Mum 79 fell a week later in an assisted living place. They said it would be 6 hours before they could attend so I drove the 15 miles to get her off the floor and then took her to A and E.

Depends on how they see you as a priority. My advise lie through teeth and say you think your dying.

This sounds like the ambulance service worked exactly how it should to me.
A person displaying heart attack symptoms gets seen really quickly and a person who has had a bit of a fall has to wait 6 hours or one of their loved ones has to come out of work early to take them for a check up..
Encouraging people to pretend to be dying to save a loved one doing the hospital run is exactly the kind of thing that will put this service further on its knees

[Spiral]

Aye, basic triaging by the sounds of it. Nothing abnormal about it, aside from the fact a six hour wait for an ambulance is an absolute joke in a developed country like ours.

[daveisaclaret]

This sounds like the ambulance service worked exactly how it should to me.
A person displaying heart attack symptoms gets seen really quickly and a person who has had a bit of a fall has to wait 6 hours or one of their loved ones has to come out of work early to take them for a check up..
Encouraging people to pretend to be dying to save a loved one doing the hospital run is exactly the kind of thing that will put this service further on its knees

NHS England standards say 9 out of 10 less urgent calls should be dealt with within 3 hours

[Spiral]

Lowbank's mum was the unlucky 1 out of 10 it seems.

[CoolClaret]

Quite impressed that this thread has stayed open after some skirmishes early on -

Seems to me that JSO has a lot more supporters than initial thought of

Very interesting

[Spiral]

Quite impressed that this thread has stayed open after some skirmishes early on -

Seems to me that JSO has a lot more supporters than initial thought of

Very interesting

For all the bluster surrounding them, and the attempts to downplay the legitimacy of their protest, you can look at the opposition that has existed towards JSO as, for lack of a better term, an expression of selfishness, as though the immediate convenience of the individual expressing hostility towards JSO takes priority over their cause, the climate crisis and whatnot, but the irony is that if I'm right about that and it is all about a person's selfishness, as though people only care about something when it directly affects them, when you follow that logic it means that the surprisingly low level of opposition to them on here just means that people who use this forum haven't been personally effected by JSO's protests, not that they actually support them

[Newcastleclaret93]

For all the bluster surrounding them, and the attempts to downplay the legitimacy of their protest, you can look at the opposition that has existed towards JSO as, for lack of a better term, an expression of selfishness, as though the immediate convenience of the individual expressing hostility towards JSO takes priority over their cause, the climate crisis and whatnot, but the irony is that if I'm right about that and it is all about a person's selfishness, as though people only care about something when it directly affects them, when you follow that logic it means that the surprisingly low level of opposition to them on here just means that people who use this forum haven't been personally effected by JSO's protests, not that they actually support them

I think most people are central on this.

Most people I know fully appreciate the need for net zero (which the U.K. government has already agreed to one of the most aggressive transitions in the world) but also realise that the methodology the JSO crew are using is totally wrong and incredibly selfish.

[Lancasterclaret]

Quite impressed that this thread has stayed open after some skirmishes early on -

Seems to me that JSO has a lot more supporters than initial thought of

Very interesting

Its not really about my support, its more to do with the legislation to deal with them to completely disproportionate, and will affect us all

Even though today has been a good day for democracy, the stuff that is going on like this is very worrying

[PaintYorkClaretnBlue]

Don’t get fit payments, just export at 15p per kWh.
Like you I did get a quote about 14 years ago. Was about £14k for a 4kw system and no batteries.

Panels are now around £250 each, they were double that 11 years ago.

Batteries are £1300 to £1400 each. I have two.

Friend of mine who thought Solar was a waste of time, saw my first two months output results.

He had 20 panels fitted, 3 batteries at 9.6kw for £14k.

He has not drawn from the grid since the 3rd week of February and does not expect to until Nov. His solar is doing 50kwh a day in this weather, exporting 40kw at 15p per kWh per day. So he is earning £6 per day.

He is south facing though.

Wow, that may be worth thinking about when my fit runs out. When I’ve looked into adding a battery they always seem to be much more than that, around £4k, where can you get them for that price?

[Spiral]

I think most people are central on this.

Most people I know fully appreciate the need for net zero (which the U.K. government has already agreed to one of the most aggressive transitions in the world) but also realise that the methodology the JSO crew are using is totally wrong and incredibly selfish.

To varying degrees, protest is inherently selfish. You take a cause which you believe in personally — you, not others — and you make some kind of scene in front of those others in order for that cause to be heard loud and clear, often against the desire or interest of those others for it to be heard (else there'd be no need for protest), so I'd argue that you can't criticize a protest as being selfish without attacking the very concept of a protest; selfishness is its nature. All we're talking here is degrees of selfishness (of the protestors), and when the cause is...well...as they see it (probably rightly), ecological annihilation, I'd say their selfishness is proportional to the cause. We're all gonna die LOL. I hate centrism for centrism's sake. That's for muppets who want the experience of being political but are either too dim or too craven to own any beliefs. Those people are the worst.

[CoolClaret]

I do think it’s bizarre in this ever increasing narcissistic world that a bit of inconvenience going to a job that let’s be honest, means **** all for the most part for something that is wayyyy more important long term is seen with so much vitriol.

I really do think as a collective we need to sit back and look at the bigger picture.

I certainly don’t think the current systems are sustainable - not just in terms of energy but the financial system —and consumerist/throw away culture.

‘Seasonal’ clothes that are of absolute horrific quality that people buy and wear once, usually made in a sweatshop somewhere in the far east.

Won’t get into it too much but the way the UK is changing really is for the worse - you drive around Lancashire now and all you see every 3 miles is another ‘Euro Garage’ god knows what mix of generic fast food shops in and around the location.

Turning into the absolute worst of America, crappy strip malls put up wherever and whenever.

Going on the continent really drives this home as well - it’s just so different… so much ‘better’

[CoolClaret]

Its not really about my support, its more to do with the legislation to deal with them to completely disproportionate, and will affect us all

Even though today has been a good day for democracy, the stuff that is going on like this is very worrying

Yeah I’ve just read up on this - it’s just not good at all is it?

They don’t seem to have any shame the current lot… Hoping we get them out because we’re sleep walking into some dangerous territory

[Damo]

NHS England standards say 9 out of 10 less urgent calls should be dealt with within 3 hours

Yet we have just been given an example of the 1 out of 10 pretending to be more urgent than it actually was.

I'm sure there there are other examples of where this system may be flawed, but im not privy to the statistics that you obviously are tlcko

[Spiral]

Its not really about my support, its more to do with the legislation to deal with them to completely disproportionate, and will affect us all

Even though today has been a good day for democracy, the stuff that is going on like this is very worrying

I'm not too worried for the long term (as far as authoritarianism is concerned), believe it or not. Those draconian anti-protest laws were pushed through only because the ministers involved in it thought it was in line with the temperature of the electorate. They were made only to serve the ministers who drafted them up in the hope they would reap political capital by appearing to be strong; it's just generic law & order bullshit, fodder for the hard of thinking who'll completely forget those laws even exist when they're inevitably softened or repealed a few years from now. The fkers who wrote those laws will abandon those laws the minute they get slapped in an election due to the brand becoming too toxic. It's tempting to think in terms of some 1984-esque tyrannical govt doing bad things to us, but really it's just personally ambitious idiots having their moment and trying to lean whichever way they think (sometimes incorrectly) the wind is blowing, and that's so when it comes to literally any and every single political subject which isn't directly related to privileged chancers getting filthy rich. Getting minted, grifting in politics to build up contacts, a sort of portfolio if you will which can be leveraged the moment they are kicked out of office by the public and they enter the private sector — this is the only core, fundamental belief of the tory party. Everything else is contingent, trivial politics.

[Robbie_painter]

I'm not too worried for the long term (as far as authoritarianism is concerned), believe it or not. Those draconian anti-protest laws were pushed through only because the ministers involved in it thought it was in line with the temperature of the electorate. They were made only to serve the ministers who drafted them up in the hope they would reap political capital by appearing to be strong; it's just generic law & order bullshit, fodder for the hard of thinking who'll completely forget those laws even exist when they're inevitably softened or repealed a few years from now. The fkers who wrote those laws will abandon those laws the minute they get slapped in an election due to the brand becoming too toxic. It's tempting to think in terms of some 1984-esque tyrannical govt doing bad things to us, but really it's just personally ambitious idiots having their moment and trying to lean whichever way they think (sometimes incorrectly) the wind is blowing, and that's so when it comes to literally any and every single political subject which isn't directly related to privileged chancers getting filthy rich. Getting minted, grifting in politics to build up contacts, a sort of portfolio if you will which can be leveraged the moment they are kicked out of office by the public and they enter the private sector — this is the only core, fundamental belief of the tory party. Everything else is contingent, trivial politics.

Wow.Imagine trawling through all that nonsense.

[Spiral]

Wow.Imagine trawling through all that nonsense.

Oh look, it's FactualFrank, here to fantasize about violence towards me. For anyone out of the loop, this bloke is as abusive towards me as you'll ever see on here, and has outright, explicitly threatened violence towards me numerous times in the past. Detached and blasé as I am about it all, it's entertaining in its own right because he's an utterly ridiculous man and ridiculous people making a scene can be entertaining (see: Just Stop Oil's soup routine), but I totally understand why the mods always delete his posts aimed at me. I think he saw my name and was just triggered.

[Taffy on the wing]

………….ALL IS DROSS!!!……….

Strange post!

[Taffy on the wing]

This site needs a signing.......
Maybe tomorrow.

[pushpinpussy]

I think its clear these new Regs are going to provide a lot of headache/challenges for the Government and the Police. Where a public authority chooses to conduct a consultation process, that consultation must be conducted properly and fairly. This includes that the consultation is not one-sided and that affected persons are included. The law on this point is reasonably clear. A full public consultation, before bringing forward the proposals, would have been appropriate to maximise the chances that the outcome was clear and workable. They have not done this. the Government’s own Consultation Principles state that departments should “consider the full range of people, business and voluntary bodies affected by the policy". This is in black and white.

The consultation processes not been adequate means there will be challenges to the Regs. Another challenge could also arise under Articles 10 and 11 of the ECHR, as if the Regulations are unlawful in public law terms, those articles taken under them would also not be in accordance with the law for the purposes of the Convention.

[Newcastleclaret93]

To varying degrees, protest is inherently selfish. You take a cause which you believe in personally — you, not others — and you make some kind of scene in front of those others in order for that cause to be heard loud and clear, often against the desire or interest of those others for it to be heard (else there'd be no need for protest), so I'd argue that you can't criticize a protest as being selfish without attacking the very concept of a protest; selfishness is its nature. All we're talking here is degrees of selfishness (of the protestors), and when the cause is...well...as they see it (probably rightly), ecological annihilation, I'd say their selfishness is proportional to the cause. We're all gonna die LOL. I hate centrism for centrism's sake. That's for muppets who want the experience of being political but are either too dim or too craven to own any beliefs. Those people are the worst.

I agree to an extent, but if they had protested in front the chinsese embassy stopping there vehicles getting in, or we actively trying to stop global net zero threats like the burning tire city in Kuwait then there support would have been enormous.

For some reason they have decided to attack working class people in the middle of already testing times.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I do think it’s bizarre in this ever increasing narcissistic world that a bit of inconvenience going to a job that let’s be honest, means **** all for the most part for something that is wayyyy more important long term is seen with so much vitriol.

I really do think as a collective we need to sit back and look at the bigger picture.

I certainly don’t think the current systems are sustainable - not just in terms of energy but the financial system —and consumerist/throw away culture.

‘Seasonal’ clothes that are of absolute horrific quality that people buy and wear once, usually made in a sweatshop somewhere in the far east.

Won’t get into it too much but the way the UK is changing really is for the worse - you drive around Lancashire now and all you see every 3 miles is another ‘Euro Garage’ god knows what mix of generic fast food shops in and around the location.

Turning into the absolute worst of America, crappy strip malls put up wherever and whenever.

Going on the continent really drives this home as well - it’s just so different… so much ‘better’

Cool claret not attending your job means **** all if you have something secure and you don’t have a family dependant on you.

I know loads of contractors that have lost days pay by not being able to attend work because they have been stuck on the M25. If you are in that position work that day can be the difference between feeding your kids that week.

[RMutt]

I'm not too worried for the long term (as far as authoritarianism is concerned), believe it or not. Those draconian anti-protest laws were pushed through only because the ministers involved in it thought it was in line with the temperature of the electorate. They were made only to serve the ministers who drafted them up in the hope they would reap political capital by appearing to be strong; it's just generic law & order bullshit, fodder for the hard of thinking who'll completely forget those laws even exist when they're inevitably softened or repealed a few years from now. The fkers who wrote those laws will abandon those laws the minute they get slapped in an election due to the brand becoming too toxic. It's tempting to think in terms of some 1984-esque tyrannical govt doing bad things to us, but really it's just personally ambitious idiots having their moment and trying to lean whichever way they think (sometimes incorrectly) the wind is blowing, and that's so when it comes to literally any and every single political subject which isn't directly related to privileged chancers getting filthy rich. Getting minted, grifting in politics to build up contacts, a sort of portfolio if you will which can be leveraged the moment they are kicked out of office by the public and they enter the private sector — this is the only core, fundamental belief of the tory party. Everything else is contingent, trivial politics.

I’m not so sure about that. Little of the anti trade union legislation that started under Thatcher and has continued drip by drip ever since has been softened. And I wouldn’t trust a Starmer Blairite Labour government government to do it either. The British people tend to accept it and move on and it just becomes a part of their everyday lives.

[Lowbankclaret]

Wow, that may be worth thinking about when my fit runs out. When I’ve looked into adding a battery they always seem to be much more than that, around £4k, where can you get them for that price?

Mine are 2.4kw each and cost me £1300 each, so £2600 for both.
My Friends were 3.2kw each and cost him £1400 each.

The thing is when you buy them with an installation they are VAT free. So adding later, it’s 20% on top for the dreaded VAT.

Hope that helps.
SWS northwest did my install.

[Lowbankclaret]

Yet we have just been given an example of the 1 out of 10 pretending to be more urgent than it actually was.

I'm sure there there are other examples of where this system may be flawed, but im not privy to the statistics that you obviously are tlcko

Neither person lied, my partner had the symptoms I said and was truly thinking she was having a heart attack. By the way the paramedics were fantastic, as was the hospital. They took her to hospital about 6pm. She had two scans by about 3 am and they discharged her at 4am and I drove to get her. She was seen as an outpatient the following day for another scan. Ultimately they didn’t find anything and she has been fine since.

My mother when she fell had a 4 gash on her arm which was bleeding and had hit her head, but didn’t know if she had been knocked out. She couldn’t get off the floor and duty manager refused to help her get up. She did ring for the ambulance and I listened into the conversation . I think because she didn’t think she had been knocked out they put it as low priority. Said it would be 7 hours so I jumped into the car, got her off the floor and to A and E . Again they were very good, my mum has skin that tears easily and cannot be stitched, so it took the nurse about 50 minutes to slowly pull the wound back together and use strips to hold it together. All told about 6 hours in A and E. Which is about normal.

[ClaretCliff]

I'm not too worried for the long term (as far as authoritarianism is concerned), believe it or not. Those draconian anti-protest laws were pushed through only because the ministers involved in it thought it was in line with the temperature of the electorate. They were made only to serve the ministers who drafted them up in the hope they would reap political capital by appearing to be strong; it's just generic law & order bullshit, fodder for the hard of thinking who'll completely forget those laws even exist when they're inevitably softened or repealed a few years from now. The fkers who wrote those laws will abandon those laws the minute they get slapped in an election due to the brand becoming too toxic. It's tempting to think in terms of some 1984-esque tyrannical govt doing bad things to us, but really it's just personally ambitious idiots having their moment and trying to lean whichever way they think (sometimes incorrectly) the wind is blowing, and that's so when it comes to literally any and every single political subject which isn't directly related to privileged chancers getting filthy rich. Getting minted, grifting in politics to build up contacts, a sort of portfolio if you will which can be leveraged the moment they are kicked out of office by the public and they enter the private sector — this is the only core, fundamental belief of the tory party. Everything else is contingent, trivial politics.

Can I just ask, Spiral. Are you a Southerner?

[Lowbankclaret]

I think protesting should be allowed.
There were several anti vax protests I saw around Burnley. Stood at the side of the road with banners etc. absolutely no issue with that.

These people want to disrupt peoples lives on a daily basis. That’s what’s wrong in my opinion.

Most people will have read articles on climate change, think I watched all of COP26 in Glasgow.

So most people have an opinion and lots agree things have to be done to change. But changing a world run on Oil and Gas cannot be done in a year or two.
Every argument has an opposite one.
I know I go on about Solar, but Peter Zeihan the geopolitical expert who also has Solar by the way. He says the environmental damage done making the panels and batteries is greater than the benefit they give in providing the electricity once fitted. Not sure I agree, but it’s shows the debates that are ongoing.

So it’s very difficult to wade through the arguments and counter arguments.

If just stop Oil just stood at the side of the road they would make their point in a small but very ineffective way, but legally. But grid locking parts of London, they get heaps of media exposure.
Will they stop new oil and gas being drilled for, No. but they create the debate nationally.

[PaintYorkClaretnBlue]

Mine are 2.4kw each and cost me £1300 each, so £2600 for both.
My Friends were 3.2kw each and cost him £1400 each.

The thing is when you buy them with an installation they are VAT free. So adding later, it’s 20% on top for the dreaded VAT.

Hope that helps.
SWS northwest did my install.

Cheers mate, out of interest, what temperature do you have your immersion set at?

[Spiral]

I’m not so sure about that. Little of the anti trade union legislation that started under Thatcher and has continued drip by drip ever since has been softened. And I wouldn’t trust a Starmer Blairite Labour government government to do it either. The British people tend to accept it and move on and it just becomes a part of their everyday lives.

Union smashing and all things related to it is consonant with the sole ideology of the tory party (getting rich, removing barriers to getting rich, unfettered capitalism, cronyism), and doing this in govt is part of that portfolio building in preparation for the private sector I mentioned. I'm depressed about the Starmer govt, but I'm even more depressed about the fact that his utterly pointless tinkering is what the country actually wants, so any decline is not really on him (or even the tory party), it's on the electorate. We're still an unbelievably strong democracy, but that means the electorate is ultimately responsible for the state of the country. If you elect a clown to be PM, you can hardly be surprised when a circus shows up.

However, on the specific matter of these anti-protest laws, this was not an election issue and was not 'voted on', so to speak, by the public. These laws are a really hard sell to the gentler and more liberal minded tories Starmer needs to win over. These laws are only politically useful if your brand is being an absolute b@stard, and the image Starmer is trying to portray is that he's not a callous b@stard like the govt are. They will be quietly softened out of existence when sanity is restored. There will be too much pressure from the left for Starmer to keep them on the books (heck, even some prominent tories have spoken against them — David Davis called them poorly defined, crude, heavy-handed, and just doesn't like them), and Starmer fighting his party over the issue won't be remotely worth it for him once the election is sealed and delivered. Furthermore, it's notable that he's been very, very tactical when answering questions on these laws, not saying he'll outright repeal them as a matter of policy, but giving himself more than enough wriggle room to shitcan them when he's got a minute, as he's neither on record as supporting or opposing them outright; he even has the flexibility to frame their repealing as being democratic. He can even frame their softening as being patriotic if he's clever enough in how he communicates it, appealing to the myth that Britain historically has stood against authoritarianism blah blah blah. Make freedom an issue of tradition and people will gobble it up. It's pi$$ easy, this. But for now, he knows he needs to be on the fence (without sounding like being on the fence) until everyone has cooled down and this all blows over, otherwise he'd be giving the tories campaign material for next year.

Can I just ask, Spiral. Are you a Southerner?

From't norf mate. Why do you ask?

[Lowbankclaret]

Cheers mate, out of interest, what temperature do you have your immersion set at?

Mine is not in temperature, typically for my stuff.
Just hot enough that you can keep your hands under , most are set too hot.

[ClaretCliff]

Union smashing and all things related to it is consonant with the sole ideology of the tory party (getting rich, removing barriers to getting rich, unfettered capitalism, cronyism), and doing this in govt is part of that portfolio building in preparation for the private sector I mentioned. I'm depressed about the Starmer govt, but I'm even more depressed about the fact that his utterly pointless tinkering is what the country actually wants, so any decline is not really on him (or even the tory party), it's on the electorate. We're still an unbelievably strong democracy, but that means the electorate is ultimately responsible for the state of the country. If you elect a clown to be PM, you can hardly be surprised when a circus shows up.

However, on the specific matter of these anti-protest laws, this was not an election issue and was not 'voted on', so to speak, by the public. These laws are a really hard sell to the gentler and more liberal minded tories Starmer needs to win over. These laws are only politically useful if your brand is being an absolute b@stard, and the image Starmer is trying to portray is that he's not a callous b@stard like the govt are. They will be quietly softened out of existence when sanity is restored. There will be too much pressure from the left for Starmer to keep them on the books (heck, even some prominent tories have spoken against them — David Davis called them poorly defined, crude, heavy-handed, and just doesn't like them), and Starmer fighting his party over the issue won't be remotely worth it for him once the election is sealed and delivered. Furthermore, it's notable that he's been very, very tactical when answering questions on these laws, not saying he'll outright repeal them as a matter of policy, but giving himself more than enough wriggle room to shitcan them when he's got a minute, as he's neither on record as supporting or opposing them outright; he even has the flexibility to frame their repealing as being democratic. He can even frame their softening as being patriotic if he's clever enough in how he communicates it, appealing to the myth that Britain historically has stood against authoritarianism blah blah blah. Make freedom an issue of tradition and people will gobble it up. It's pi$$ easy, this. But for now, he knows he needs to be on the fence (without sounding like being on the fence) until everyone has cooled down and this all blows over, otherwise he'd be giving the tories campaign material for next year.



From't norf mate. Why do you ask?

In the thread about Northerners, Bobinho gave us his idea on the difference between Northerners and Southerners -

… I don’t believe it has anything whatsoever to do with geography… I believe it’s a state of mind. It’s an attitude of no nonsense, of wanting to just get things done with a minimum of fuss and drama. Of not using 47 words to get a point acrosss when it can be done with 5. …

I read a few of your posts and I just thought you might be a Southerner

[Spiral]

In the thread about Northerners, Bobinho gave us his idea on the difference between Northerners and Southerners -

… I don’t believe it has anything whatsoever to do with geography… I believe it’s a state of mind. It’s an attitude of no nonsense, of wanting to just get things done with a minimum of fuss and drama. Of not using 47 words to get a point acrosss when it can be done with 5. …

I read a few of your posts and I just thought you might be a Southerner

That's complete bullshit.

See, I can be succinct when I want to.

You're describing an internalised bigotry of low expectations. The invisible restraints in this thinking is the assumption that people with a 'Northern state of mind' (whatever the fk that even means — I think that sentence is nowt more than base, tribal chauvinism, a similar or even the same thinking pattern as rabid nationalism but on a more local scale) — people with this 'state of mind' are assumed to be incapable of eloquent articulation; people with this 'state of mind' are socially limited to and by certain modes of thought and certain behaviours, and are held to certain expectations by others. These are hallmarks of bigotry as a social phenomenon, except people impose it on themselves because they grow up in a culture where that is expected of them. As a defence mechanism they make a virtue of necessity, lionising the fact they can't communicate as well as others by twisting it into something as though it were some expression of personal will and freedom, but deep down this ability to articulate themselves in the more vigorous and exhaustive ways they claim not to care for, they secretly envy in others who can, and it's this envy which informs the hostility.

It comes down to a person being offended either at not being able to understand what is being said, or not being able to express themselves like a person who can do so eloquently. Rather than having the curiosity to learn, the humility to know to slow down, and an open mind to try new things and see things in a different way, they instead put up a shield and dismiss out of hand that which they perceive to be an affront to their own intelligence. Ultimately it is because they do not like feeling challenged — challenged by others, or challenging themselves. So, we get completely nonsensical statements like, 'you must be a Southerner' in response a person writing ideas down. If you want further illustration of the chauvinistic pride on display, see how all the heavily implied value judgements in your post about Northern vs Southern contribute to you using the label 'Southerner' as though it were some form of pejorative, where being Northern is preferred to being Southern based on arbitrary and subjective characteristics. This is chauvinism. As you may see from what I've already said in this paragraph, this culture is internally oppressive, and I believe people ought to try and transcend it in order that they may be their authentic selves, not the people they are expected to be by their culture.

Some ideas are better communicated and some points better made with a more systematic approach. Common turns of phrase are usually encumbered with various different assumptions, so when you draw on a worn-out phrase to say something, it usually carries along with it various other ideas and assumptions which almost always go totally unchallenged, and the problem can be that these connoted ideas might obscure matters or limit full expression, and this may restrict the ability to express an idea with true depth of a feeling. That's what this is all about: depth of feeling. By going around those phrases and by deliberately and consciously unencumbering ideas of the connoted ideas tethered to them by familiarity, by expressing them in more novel ways — and yes, sometimes long-winded ways — this has the effect of isolating the idea you want to communicate, thus allowing you more control over how it is communicated with the aspiration at all times of being precise and clear. The point is to stare at something (rhetorically speaking) long enough that it is isolated and made unfamiliar, then you can work with it afresh without the host of associated ideas that come with hackneyed terms of phrase being dragged along and muddying what it is you're trying to say.

By the way, saying X is not about geography but rather a state of mind, then annexing this to a particular state of mind to a geographical term is completely insane and illogical. The point seems to contradict itself. It's romantic sophistry, which is to say, it feels like it makes sense, but in fact it doesn't.

[dsr]

That's complete [deleted].

See, I can be succinct when I want to.

You're describing an internalised bigotry of low expectations. The invisible restraints in this thinking is the assumption that people with a 'Northern state of mind' (whatever the fk that even means — I think that sentence is nowt more than base, tribal chauvinism, a similar or even the same thinking pattern as rabid nationalism but on a more local scale) — people with this 'state of mind' are assumed to be incapable of eloquent articulation; people with this 'state of mind' are socially limited to and by certain modes of thought and certain behaviours, and are held to certain expectations by others. These are hallmarks of bigotry as a social phenomenon, except people impose it on themselves because they grow up in a culture where that is expected of them. As a defence mechanism they make a virtue of necessity, lionising the fact they can't communicate as well as others by twisting it into something as though it were some expression of personal will and freedom, but deep down this ability to articulate themselves in the more vigorous and exhaustive ways they claim not to care for, they secretly envy in others who can, and it's this envy which informs the hostility.

It comes down to a person being offended either at not being able to understand what is being said, or not being able to express themselves like a person who can do so eloquently. Rather than having the curiosity to learn, the humility to know to slow down, and an open mind to try new things and see things in a different way, they instead put up a shield and dismiss out of hand that which they perceive to be an affront to their own intelligence. Ultimately it is because they do not like feeling challenged — challenged by others, or challenging themselves. So, we get completely nonsensical statements like, 'you must be a Southerner' in response a person writing ideas down. If you want further illustration of the chauvinistic pride on display, see how all the heavily implied value judgements in your post about Northern vs Southern contribute to you using the label 'Southerner' as though it were some form of pejorative, where being Northern is preferred to being Southern based on arbitrary and subjective characteristics. This is chauvinism. As you may see from what I've already said in this paragraph, this culture is internally oppressive, and I believe people ought to try and transcend it in order that they may be their authentic selves, not the people they are expected to be by their culture.

Some ideas are better communicated and some points better made with a more systematic approach. Common turns of phrase are usually encumbered with various different assumptions, so when you draw on a worn-out phrase to say something, it usually carries along with it various other ideas and assumptions which almost always go totally unchallenged, and the problem can be that these connoted ideas might obscure matters or limit full expression, and this may restrict the ability to express an idea with true depth of a feeling. That's what this is all about: depth of feeling. By going around those phrases and by deliberately and consciously unencumbering ideas of the connoted ideas tethered to them by familiarity, by expressing them in more novel ways — and yes, sometimes long-winded ways — this has the effect of isolating the idea you want to communicate, thus allowing you more control over how it is communicated with the aspiration at all times of being precise and clear. The point is to stare at something (rhetorically speaking) long enough that it is isolated and made unfamiliar, then you can work with it afresh without the host of associated ideas that come with hackneyed terms of phrase being dragged along and muddying what it is you're trying to say.

By the way, saying X is not about geography but rather a state of mind, then annexing this to a particular state of mind to a geographical term is completely insane and illogical. The point seems to contradict itself. It's romantic sophistry, which is to say, it feels like it makes sense, but in fact it doesn't.

I'm glad you can be succinct when you want to.

[Bosscat]

I'm glad you can be succinct when you want to.

[Spiral]

I'm glad you can be succinct when you want to.

You got a reading comprehension deficit or something? The comment about being succinct was referring to the "that's complete bullshit' line.

[dsr]

You got a reading comprehension deficit or something? The comment about being succinct was referring to the "that's complete [deleted] line.

I'm sorry, next time I won't just use a smiley, I'll put "THIS IS A JOKE" so we don't misunderstand each other.

[Spiral]

I've never seen you make a joke on here before. Didn't have you down for the sort. You've caught me by surprise.

[jos]

Which mode of transport uses the most oil per mile?
1. Cruise Ships
2. Transatlantic Jets
3. Diesel trains
4. Other

[Lowbankclaret]

Which mode of transport uses the most oil per mile?
1. Cruise Ships
2. Transatlantic Jets
3. Diesel trains
4. Other

I did see reports when I worked at RR that the amount of fuel used by a plane per seat were the same or slightly less than a a person in a car if there were 4 people in the car.

[Bosscat]

Which mode of transport uses the most oil per mile?
1. Cruise Ships
2. Transatlantic Jets
3. Diesel trains
4. Other

Cunard say the Queen Victoria does 45 feet per imperial Gallon of Oil ...

So equates to around 16 miles per passenger per gallon.