Medical Degrees

[basil6345789]

There's a suggestion to shorten these by 1 year. I'd like to see "Medicine (not just Biology)" as a specific, specialised subject to be taken at Secondary schools, from the start, through GCSE's and then A Levels. Think how that would boost and accelerate training of nurses and doctors!

[Spike]

Most doctors seem to use Google these days probably since Boots the Chemist stopped doing leaflets

[ŽižkovClaret]

We can all google, tbf

[Spike]

We can all google, tbf

Fancy a change of career?

[Bosscat]

Heres 6 Degrees

https://www.iceinstitute.org/blog/2019/ ... on-edition

[beddie]

Heres 6 Degrees

https://www.iceinstitute.org/blog/2019/ ... on-edition

I prefer 3 degrees. I always had a crush on Val.

[Roosterbooster]

As a doctor I'd say a few things

Studying medicine per se, at school, wouldn't make any difference
Mandatory Basic LIfe Support might though
Shortening medicine to 4 years, without a previous degree in an allied subject, would leave you incredibly underprepared for life as a doctor
Medicine is as closely related to biology as music is to english literature
Being able to use Google, without any medical education, is like being able to push down the accelerator on an F1 car, without knowing how to drive

[bfcjg]

Doctors should be adequately paid and more attention should be given to work life balance, that way there wouldn't be a shortage of doctors.

[Bosscat]

As a doctor I'd say a few things

Studying medicine per se, at school, wouldn't make any difference
Mandatory Basic LIfe Support might though
Shortening medicine to 4 years, without a previous degree in an allied subject, would leave you incredibly underprepared for life as a doctor
Medicine is as closely related to biology as music is to english literature
Being able to use Google, without any medical education, is like being able to push down the accelerator on an F1 car, without knowing how to drive

My Brother-in-law is a retired Dentist and he had (and still has) loads of Medical Books and related stuff in his Library, his Mother was over from Ireland one Christmas and was in the Library looking through the bookshelves.
She called him in and said she needed to go to the doctors because of what she thought she was suffering from having seen the "symptoms" described in the medical books... needless to say she wasn`t ill at all in reality.

[Brucefanclaret]

The success of any Apprenticeship programme depends to a large degree on the quality of supervision offered to the student. Do we have enough existing experienced doctors to be able to do that effectively? My experience of Nursing Apprenticeships is that hospitals aren’t very good at running them.

[summitclaret]

I'd incentivise UK citizens to become doctors and remain in the UK by waiving tuition fees and givIng non repayable grants, subject to remaining in the NHS for many many years. It has the added advantage of encouraging people away from going to Uni to study less valuable subjects such as Law.

Obviously the entry requirements would be very high.

[ArmchairDetective]

I'd incentivise UK citizens to become doctors and remain in the UK by waiving tuition fees and givIng non repayable grants, subject to remaining in the NHS for many many years. It has the added advantage of encouraging people away from going to Uni to study less valuable subjects such as Law.

Obviously the entry requirements would be very high.

This is pretty much what happens for training Clinical Psychologists in the UK, except amazingly there is currently no obligation to stay in the NHS.

It's certainly not a perfect system but it makes it incredibly competitive. Around 750 applications for about 40 places to train in Manchester this year.

[dougcollins]

As a doctor I'd say a few things

Studying medicine per se, at school, wouldn't make any difference
Mandatory Basic LIfe Support might though
Shortening medicine to 4 years, without a previous degree in an allied subject, would leave you incredibly underprepared for life as a doctor
Medicine is as closely related to biology as music is to english literature
Being able to use Google, without any medical education, is like being able to push down the accelerator on an F1 car, without knowing how to drive

What's your view on the educational fee payback that England based students suffer?

[Roosterbooster]

What's your view on the educational fee payback that England based students suffer?

I think Martin Lewis summarises it quite well
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/stude ... s-changes/

I agree with him

[Roosterbooster]

I'd incentivise UK citizens to become doctors and remain in the UK by waiving tuition fees and givIng non repayable grants, subject to remaining in the NHS for many many years. It has the added advantage of encouraging people away from going to Uni to study less valuable subjects such as Law.

Are you saying "Law" is not a valuable subject to study at Uni?

[summitclaret]

No. I said less valuable.

[dougcollins]

I think Martin Lewis summarises it quite well
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/stude ... s-changes/

I agree with him

Can't argue with that.

[bfcmik]

Are you saying "Law" is not a valuable subject to study at Uni?

Law may be a remuneratively much more valuable degree but it isn't that valuable to society as a whole. It seems like the more lawyers there are the more f**ked up society seems to get!

[Roosterbooster]

Law may be a remuneratively much more valuable degree but it isn't that valuable to society as a whole. It seems like the more lawyers there are the more f**ked up society seems to get!

Hmmm. I'll let you think about that if you're ever sitting in a cell, waiting for one. Or sat in front of a judge, ensuring you get a fair trial, given judges must have a law degree. Or even vote for a political party, who, without Parliamentary Counsel (yep, you guessed it... lawyers), cannot get laws passed. I'd say the diligent study of law is one of the cornerstones of our society.

[BurnleyFC]

Slightly off topic, but hopefully Roosterbooster may be able to help, but twice in the last five years I’ve needed MRI scans to diagnose problems - once to diagnose a shattered disc in my spine which required a microdiscectomy and once to diagnose trigeminal neuralgia for which I’m currently on medication.

I’d literally been to the moon and back to try to get these problems diagnosed properly - multiple GPs appointments, painkillers, physio, ultrasound, CT scans - when all it took was a 30 minute MRI in both instances to nail it and have the problems pointed out to me. The frustrating part was that I’d Googled and had a fair idea of what my problems were long before I was diagnosed by a medical professional.

Why is it that GPs (two different surgeries, I might add) are seemingly so reluctant to ask for MRI scans? Surely all the other appointments ends up costing the NHS more?

[summitclaret]

Hmmm. I'll let you think about that if you're ever sitting in a cell, waiting for one. Or sat in front of a judge, ensuring you get a fair trial, given judges must have a law degree. Or even vote for a political party, who, without Parliamentary Counsel (yep, you guessed it... lawyers), cannot get laws passed. I'd say the diligent study of law is one of the cornerstones of our society.

Agree but we only need some people that can do that. Trouble is it's seen as elite and its not. There's always been too much focus by academics on subjects that could just be hobbies, like Literiture.

Who would you put in a safe place to rebuild society if we were threatened with elimination. I'd have doctors, civil engineers, scientists and technology people in first? I'd have some humanities people, but they would be the minority.

[Roosterbooster]

Slightly off topic, but hopefully Roosterbooster may be able to help, but twice in the last five years I’ve needed MRI scans to diagnose problems - once to diagnose a shattered disc in my spine which required a microdiscectomy and once to diagnose trigeminal neuralgia for which I’m currently on medication.

I’d literally been to the moon and back to try to get these problems diagnosed properly - multiple GPs appointments, painkillers, physio, ultrasound, CT scans - when all it took was a 30 minute MRI in both instances to nail it and have the problems pointed out to me. The frustrating part was that I’d Googled and had a fair idea of what my problems were long before I was diagnosed by a medical professional.

Why is it that GPs (two different surgeries, I might add) are seemingly so reluctant to ask for MRI scans?

Couple of reasons mainly (although I'm not a GP)

1) Cost. In private healthcare systems, you'll be offered way more investigations because they can charge you. But the NHS has limited resources, and quite rightly, has to spend the money where it'll do most good. We are even at the point of getting CT scans rather than MRIs for cancer patients, just because we don't have enough urgent MRI slots.
2) Incidentalomas. These are investigation findings that you stumble upon by complete accident. Naturally you might think "Great, I've found a problem that I never knew I had". But actually, most of the time, these incidental findings turn out to be nothing, and often involve invasive tests, and sometimes major operations with serious lifelong complications and side effects. They are a massive drain on NHS resources. And yes, sometimes they pick up early aggressive cancers by complete fluke. And that's great for the patient. But more often than not, they don't. They pick up benign lumps, inflammation, minor infections, the whole lot.

But the final thing I'd say, is that doing scans for the sake of it is not good medicine. The vast majority of the time, the patient history gives you the diagnosis. Tests help confirm it, rule out sinister causes, or help plan treatment. With much easier access to scans, the profession has become slightly more casual to use them to diagnose, but it's not the best way to practise. I don't need a scan to diagnose trigeminal neuralgia. But if certain parts of the history or examination suggest so, a scan might just help me rest easy that it isn't something more serious. But also, I'm a specialist. My area of exposure is therefore limited compared to a GP. They require an ever increasing amount of complex knowledge, about every aspect of medicine, for a growing and aging population, with fewer resources, and more top down pressure than ever. It's a thankless job, and it's a miracle that GPs don't get is massively wrong more often, given the odds are stacked against them most of the time.

[Roosterbooster]

Agree but we only need some people that can do that. Trouble is it's seen as elite and its not. There's always been too much focus by academics on subjects that could just be hobbies, like Literiture.

Who would you put in a safe place to rebuild society if we were threatened with elimination. I'd have doctors, civil engineers, scientists and technology people in first? I'd have some humanities people, but they would be the minority.

Might seem moronic to say this as a doctor. But if I was rebuilding a society, I'd ensure the rule of law was in place before I paid attention to healthcare. A fair and just society would be by number one priority

[BurnleyFC]

Couple of reasons mainly (although I'm not a GP)

1) Cost. In private healthcare systems, you'll be offered way more investigations because they can charge you. But the NHS has limited resources, and quite rightly, has to spend the money where it'll do most good. We are even at the point of getting CT scans rather than MRIs for cancer patients, just because we don't have enough urgent MRI slots.
2) Incidentalomas. These are investigation findings that you stumble upon by complete accident. Naturally you might think "Great, I've found a problem that I never knew I had". But actually, most of the time, these incidental findings turn out to be nothing, and often involve invasive tests, and sometimes major operations with serious lifelong complications and side effects. They are a massive drain on NHS resources. And yes, sometimes they pick up early aggressive cancers by complete fluke. And that's great for the patient. But more often than not, they don't. They pick up benign lumps, inflammation, minor infections, the whole lot.

But the final thing I'd say, is that doing scans for the sake of it is not good medicine. The vast majority of the time, the patient history gives you the diagnosis. Tests help confirm it, rule out sinister causes, or help plan treatment. With much easier access to scans, the profession has become slightly more casual to use them to diagnose, but it's not the best way to practise. I don't need a scan to diagnose trigeminal neuralgia. But if certain parts of the history or examination suggest so, a scan might just help me rest easy that it isn't something more serious. But also, I'm a specialist. My area of exposure is therefore limited compared to a GP. They require an ever increasing amount of complex knowledge, about every aspect of medicine, for a growing and aging population, with fewer resources, and more top down pressure than ever. It's a thankless job, and it's a miracle that GPs don't get is massively wrong more often, given the odds are stacked against them most of the time.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I really do appreciate it and it makes a lot more sense hearing (or reading it) from a medical professional’s perspective.

[bfcjg]

Whilst discussing the merits of law, and the NHS latest revamp what sickens me is the ambulance chasing lawyers who can destroy a career by encouraging fraudulent claims by manipulated patients, when one of mine was younger they were taken into hospital and was slowly deteriorating, thank goodness a senior consultant was called for and the result was a full recovery. The overworked doctor who was on call and had 4 hours sleep over a 48 hour period looked distraught and apologised, we hugged him, he was looking after a paediatric ward virtually single handed and was doing his best, the thought that someone would sue a person and ruin their career whilst doing their best for their fellow man sickens me.

[AmbleClaret]

Whilst discussing the merits of law, and the NHS latest revamp what sickens me is the ambulance chasing lawyers who can destroy a career by encouraging fraudulent claims by manipulated patients, when one of mine was younger they were taken into hospital and was slowly deteriorating, thank goodness a senior consultant was called for and the result was a full recovery. The overworked doctor who was on call and had 4 hours sleep over a 48 hour period looked distraught and apologised, we hugged him, he was looking after a paediatric ward virtually single handed and was doing his best, the thought that someone would sue a person and ruin their career whilst doing their best for their fellow man sickens me.

So true this.As a dentist I received a fair few letters from solicitors over the years trying to claim money on behalf of patients for completely made up reasons(lies,including one from a very prominent now Padiham Councillor).
They never even had the courtesy to reply when I sent them letters back stating the facts. I made a point of refusing to treat anyone I knew was in the legal 'profession'.

[IanMcL]

We are just lucky that Indian families still aspire for their children to be doctors.