Charlie Taylor

[ksrclaret]

So, do we think VK will be pragmatic enough to start with Taylor at left back now it seems he’ll be our only recognised option for the foreseeable?

Personally, I hope so. It will be worth sacrificing some of our preferred style in possession to make sure we’re balanced and secure enough out of possession.

Let’s hope we can identify a viable alternative to Maatsen in January.

[4midable]

Need a replacment

[Devils_Advocate]

No need for Taylor in the league (he's not good enough). If we don't get a LB tonight then just got to be patient whilst VK moulds the team around our best players (of which Taylor isn't one) like he did at the start of last season.

Taylor decent sub to come on towards the end if we have something to hold on to

[ksrclaret]

Need a replacment

Yes, but we didn’t get one.

CT to start.

[RVclaret]

We’ll see what happens but 1. Depends what system we play 2. Id trust Vinny to try and mould Delcroix into that LB/LCB hybrid role rather than CT (given he’s far more technically proficient).

[4midable]

Yes, but we didn’t get one.

CT to start.

Wouldnt start him
Not good enough

[KellyClaret]

Wouldnt start him
Not good enough

So who in the squad is better?

[Rileybobs]

Taylor’s biggest weakness in this set up for me is his lack of pace. Can’t see him having much joy defending on the halfway line.

[ksrclaret]

Some good points so far, but for me he’s still the best option we have in the squad.

Delcroix is not physically ready to be defending down a flank (that much was obvious against Villa when VK changed things), and the right footed options make us look unbalanced.

[4midable]

So who in the squad is better?

Any of the new signings.
Hes not quick enough for the prem
He doddles with the ball and tries cutting back when he turns like a tank
Weak spot. Needs replacing

Same reasons you wont see much of cork or jay

[ksrclaret]

Taylor’s biggest weakness in this set up for me is his lack of pace. Can’t see him having much joy defending on the halfway line.

We’re going to have to be more pragmatic than that. Even Al-Dakhil, our fastest defender, couldn’t defend on the halfway line and was beaten several times over.

[Spiral]

Just a reminder that City won the Champions League playing four by-trade centre backs. If you get the "fullback" rotation right it can work. I reckon when Kompany player Al-Dakhil at LB??? during pre-season he was having a look at that as a possible tactic. Delcroix is a CB by trade, not a LB, and yet he played in a LB position against Villa. I think Kompany values defenders for their build-up qualities more than their defensive qualities, and if Ameen/Delcroix do more in the build-up phase, he'll go with them over Taylor I think, who isn't as smooth with the ball.

[Rileybobs]

We’re going to have to be more pragmatic than that. Even Al-Dakhil, our fastest defender, couldn’t defend on the halfway line and was beaten several times over.

Yes we do need to be more pragmatic but if we’re going to press high up the pitch - which we are set up to do - then we need to defend high and squeeze the pitch. We even did it against City. This is how we are going to play. So as much as I’d like us to be more defensively robust I can’t see how Taylor with his lack of pace will be suited in any way. Defending leads late in games a different story perhaps.

[Spiral]

We’re going to have to be more pragmatic than that. Even Al-Dakhil, our fastest defender, couldn’t defend on the halfway line and was beaten several times over.

To be fair there's only about three players in the league faster than Watkins, and you can work around that by controlling midfield (or attempting to!) to reduce the number of times the fast players get slipped through.

[ksrclaret]

To be fair there's only about three players in the league faster than Watkins, and you can work around that by controlling midfield (or attempting to!) to reduce the number of times the fast players get slipped through.

Yes very true, the midfield can mitigate balls in behind but it’ll need a very different setup to the one we saw with only Cullen in there. Perhaps this is where Massengo will come into the equation, who has been described as a terrier without the ball.

[Spiral]

Yes very true, the midfield can mitigate balls in behind but it’ll need a very different setup to the one we saw with only Cullen in there. Perhaps this is where Massengo will come into the equation, who has been described as a terrier without the ball.

I know nothing about Massengo, but on the surface of it you have on one hand a player who, yes, might have lost his way a bit at Bristol City, but on the other hand, was signed for £7m four years ago when he was 18. That's a lot. I know some players never live up to their potential or their early transfer fees, but there must be something in there for a Championship club to pay that in 2019. I don't think we spent more than about £4m last summer, and only paid anything close to £7m for Foster once it looked like we were already up in January...and this was FOUR years ago where Bristol paid that. I'm living in hope.

[Raconteur]

We’ll see what happens but 1. Depends what system we play 2. Id trust Vinny to try and mould Delcroix into that LB/LCB hybrid role rather than CT (given he’s far more technically proficient).

I would agree. One of the main things i noticed from Delcroix on Sunday was that he was pretty slick with his passing. Looked calm when receiving the ball and looked to pass forward.

For me CT is the opposite, looks nervous when receiving the ball at times, stops then passes the ball backwards. Slowing down the attacking phase and making the transition slow.
Our play needs a quick transition and unfortunately for me CT hinders this. I would love to be proved wrong though.

[Spiral]

Whoever we play in goal we don't even seem to look for Taylor for a pass either. We're playing to his strengths (or rather not exposing one of his weaknesses) by doing that of course, but it's noticeable. I think in an ideal world Kompany has five players available for a pass from the GK: the four defenders and Cullen. If Taylor can't do that, that's 20% less work for the opposition to do in that phase of play because they know Taylor won't be looked to for the build-up.

[Murger]

He’s a better option at LB than Delcroix.

[Elizabeth]

Charlie Taylor sitting on a big wage - hard to shift players like this.
He’s done his bit for the club over the years and would put a good shift in I’m sure if needed

[ksrclaret]

He’s a better option at LB than Delcroix.

Agreed

[Spiral]

He’s a better option at LB than Delcroix.

Jury's still out on Delcroix defensively (by which I mean he's only played one game for us so it's impossible to give an intelligently informed opinion on him), but for the sake of argument even if it's true that Taylor is a better defensive LB, he's nowhere near what Kompany wants in our build-up. You can tell that from the way we play when he's played, and from Kompany's selection decisions. I think this is going to be this season's Lowton debate. There will be times when people might envision him doing a more solid defensive job, but it's clear Kompany needs more technical skill in that position, because the back five (including the GK) is the foundation upon which our tactics are based, our tactics are in service of our overall footballing philosophy (for lack of a better word), and our footballing philosophy is a component in our business model where we bring technical players with lots of potential through, develop them and sell them for a fortune to bigger clubs who need tricky technical footballers more than they need cloggers and bettering rams.

I think Taylor is better defensively than Maatsen, too, but I know who I'd rather play LB.

[Murger]

Jury's still out on Delcroix defensively (by which I mean he's only played one game for us so it's impossible to give an intelligently informed opinion on him), but for the sake of argument even if it's true that Taylor is a better defensive LB, he's nowhere near what Kompany wants in our build-up. You can tell that from the way we play when he's played, and from Kompany's selection decisions. I think this is going to be this season's Lowton debate. There will be times when people might envision him doing a more solid defensive job, but it's clear Kompany needs more technical skill in that position, because the back five (including the GK) is the foundation upon which our tactics are based, our tactics are in service of our overall footballing philosophy (for lack of a better word), and our footballing philosophy is a component in our business model where we bring technical players with lots of potential through, develop them and sell them for a fortune to bigger clubs who need tricky technical footballers more than they do cloggers and bettering rams.

I think Taylor is better defensively than Maatsen, too, but I know who I'd rather play LB.

If the excuse that Taylor isn’t the type of LB that Kompany wants, I don’t see how you can then say Delaroix is the next best.

[Spiral]

If the excuse that Taylor isn’t the type of LB that Kompany wants, I don’t see how you can then say Delaroix is the next best.

I don't either, because I've only seen him once, but there were a few signs against a good Villa side that he looks a bit slicker than Taylor in possession. His defensive positions were a bit bad at times last week, but there were no problems with him in the build-up, and it's the build-up I'm drawing attention to.

[ksrclaret]

I don't either, because I've only seen him once, but there were a few signs against a good Villa side that he looks a bit slicker than Taylor in possession. His defensive positions were a bit bad at times last week, but there were no problems with him in the build-up, and it's the build-up I'm drawing attention to.

I’m just slightly concerned that Burnley in the PL can’t be overly obsessed with the build-up at the expense of a sound defensive structure.

Sides will be happy to let our inferior players have the ball in the knowledge they will really hurt us in transition.

[Spiral]

I’m just slightly concerned that Burnley in the PL can’t be overly obsessed with the build-up at the expense of a sound defensive structure.

Sides will be happy to let our inferior players have the ball in the knowledge they will really hurt us in transition.

I do kind of sympathise with that viewpoint, but I feel that in order to make that point folk are having to exaggerate what Taylor actually gives us defensively. He is very solid, no doubt, but remember that Taylor was the third best defender in a defence that got relegated the last time we played at this level, and the fourth best player out of five if you extend the defensive unit to include the GK, and this was in a team that set up with a priority on protecting the goal and made defenders look better than they usually are. If we are to place on the weighing scales a defence with Taylor in it and weigh it up against a defence more conducive to Kompany's build-up play (i.e. someone else more technical playing LB), we really do need to be accurate about the weight of Taylor's defensive abilities, which while not exactly being found wanting, I feel are being overstated somewhat to argue the point.

[Bordeauxclaret]

I like Taylor. Good honest player who will get up and down the line all day if you asked him.
But I’m amazed anyone has watched the way Kompany likes his teams to play and thinks Taylor is a fit there at full back.

[ksrclaret]

I like Taylor. Good honest player who will get up and down the line all day if you asked him.
But I’m amazed anyone has watched the way Kompany likes his teams to play and thinks Taylor is a fit there at full back.

Of course he’s not, but then again nobody else in the squad is.

[Burnleyareback2]

We are a better squad right now with having some of the old guard around.

No debate or doubt required.

[Stayingup]

I do kind of sympathise with that viewpoint, but I feel that in order to make that point folk are having to exaggerate what Taylor actually gives us defensively. He is very solid, no doubt, but remember that Taylor was the third best defender in a defence that got relegated the last time we played at this level, and the fourth best player out of five if you extend the defensive unit to include the GK, and this was in a team that set up with a priority on protecting the goal and made defenders look better than they usually are. If we are to place on the weighing scales a defence with Taylor in it and weigh it up against a defence more conducive to Kompany's build-up play (i.e. someone else more technical playing LB), we really do need to be accurate about the weight of Taylor's defensive abilities, which while not exactly being found wanting, I feel are being overstated somewhat to argue the point.

Someone more technical? You mean a plumber or electrician? Taylor is a proven zpremier league defender. Full stop.

[burnleymik]

I like Taylor. Good honest player who will get up and down the line all day if you asked him.
But I’m amazed anyone has watched the way Kompany likes his teams to play and thinks Taylor is a fit there at full back.

Watching the last game and the role Delcroix played, which was left back in defence and making up at back 3 when we were moving forward, I think Taylor could do that. I don't think he could do the role Maatsen was asked to play though, but the fact is we haven't got anyone to play that role now Maatsen is coming anyway.

[Spiral]

Taylor is a proven zpremier league defender. Full stop.

Do you not think that statement is a little bit too blunt for the debate we're having here? I've tried being nuanced and separating defensive ability from build-up ability, because I think Kompany sees it this way and has fallen on the side of prioritising build-up, but just saying he's 'proven' misses out a lot of the nuance that has informed the decisions Kompany has made that have led to Taylor not playing so much. There must be a reason why this proven premier league defender was behind a kid from Chelsea last season, right? If you can work out why that is, you can work out why saying he's 'proven' might not be very convincing.

[TPClaret]

He was our best player in our last season in the Premier League. Had a good game against Forest as well in the cup

[claretspice]

Kompany has the squad he has. He has to adapt to it, to the extent he cannot mould it to the players he would choose.

If Kompany proves our only recognised left back in an hour, Kompany has to adapt to that situation.

[AlargeClaret]

He’s an excellent LB with loads of prem experience and very few mistakes over the yrs . He’s fairly quick for a big man and gets to the byline , also good at forcing wingers to our own byline and a very accurate tackler .That said VK tactics and style of play are not really suited to Taylor and being pretty 1 footed won’t help his cause . He’s a 442 full back really .

[IanMcL]

Charlie Taylor is an excellent defender and just what we need on the prem, until there is a rhythm in the team and wins. If that happens, then maybe someone else, who can enhance that, however, we will be up against it often and Charlie is the man for that.

[ClaretMat]

He's our best option at left back, not perfect for how Kompany wants to play but he gives us solidity and added aerial ability.
And frankly if it's Charlie Taylor, or Ian Maatsen for 31m for a team like us it simply has to be Charlie Taylor.

[ecc]

Maatsen is history.

[Lord_Bob]

Said it on the other thread. Roberts is going to play LB, Al-Dakil or O'Shea at RB. Delacroix did OK at LCB (and I have a bias for left footed LCBs, admittedly) I think eventually him and Beyer might be our best CB combination.

[Vintage Claret]

Always rated Charlie Taylor, glad he's staying.

[scouseclaret]

I’d have no problem playing Taylor but if he really can’t be made to fit our “style” then why not get Ryan Bertrand in as a short-term solution?

[Gazclaret83]

Charlie Taylor is an excellent defender and just what we need on the prem, until there is a rhythm in the team and wins. If that happens, then maybe someone else, who can enhance that, however, we will be up against it often and Charlie is the man for that.

100% agree with this. We ain't championship anymore. We need to defend against a lot better opposition

[Spiral]

100% agree with this. We ain't championship anymore. We need to defend against a lot better opposition

We played man-to-man against City and played a high line against Villa. We'll need to tweak it a bit and find distances our players can better work with, but the days of protecting the box are gone. We're building towards being a possession team first and foremost. You can't just abandon the whole footballing strategy we've put in place because of a rough start (which everyone felt was inevitable before a ball was kicked this season).

[Gazclaret83]

We played man-to-man against City and played a high line against Villa. We'll need to tweak it a bit and find distances our players can better work with, but the days of protecting the box are gone. We're building towards being a possession team first and foremost. You can't just abandon the whole footballing strategy we've put in place because of a rough start (which everyone felt was inevitable before a ball was kicked this season).

I'm not saying abandon the football kompany is trying to play,I love it. But let's be real we're gonna concede a lot of goals if we're so naive in defence. Just think Taylor at left back gives everyone a bit of confidence cos he can defend his position

[leelad]

Need a settled back line ASAP in this league, I'd feel more comfortable with him in there for Tottenham game. Round pegs in round holes!

[KlyBfc]

Post Sat Sep 02, 2023 6:13 am

Sorry if anyone else has posted this and I’ve missed it.

Wonder if we will see Egan-Riley in the squad when he gets fit. Can play both full back and defensive midfield and had a successful loan at Hibs (so much so PSV were linked). His profile of being a fullback that can step into midfield certainly fits the bill, just if VK thinks he’s good enough I suppose, and could free Roberts up (I know not ideal) to play left back.

[Spijed]

With Charlie Taylor playing against Forest (not having seen the full game) were we as effective going forward as we were at times against Villa or less effective?

[Elizabeth]

I'd be surprised if Taylor is anything more than a stopgap this season

[Enola Gay]

Post Sat Sep 02, 2023 6:13 am

Sorry if anyone else has posted this and I’ve missed it.

Wonder if we will see Egan-Riley in the squad when he gets fit. Can play both full back and defensive midfield and had a successful loan at Hibs (so much so PSV were linked). His profile of being a fullback that can step into midfield certainly fits the bill, just if VK thinks he’s good enough I suppose, and could free Roberts up (I know not ideal) to play left back.

Gone to PSV, hasn't he?

[daveisaclaret]

Nothing has changed at left back, and in both games Taylor hasn't even made the bench. It's nice to debate the merits of playing him but it really couldn't be clearer that it ain't happening.