Mr Bates vs the Post Office

[Nonayforever]

Unbelievably , the investigators that were sent to supposedly help the postmaster's with the system were on a commission to ramp the losses up.

[evensteadiereddie]

A fair bit of buck passing going on too.
Most unexpected!

[Big Vinny K]

A magistrate or judge sitting on a case, say in Newcastle, would be unaware of a similar case for example in Birmingham.
Because the postmasters were being told there were no other cases the question would not be raised by defending solicitors either

Not so sure that’s the case. The CPS would at some point be surely hearing about other cases and asking the questions of the Post Office as to whether there are other cases.

The Treasury Select committee meeting this morning and interviewing the investigator Bradshaw was brutal.
This treasure select review is in its 3rd phase so this interview with Bradshaw was presumably arranged weeks or months ago.
Can you imagine what he must have been feeling in the last week or so since the TV drama and this being such massive news ? I doubt without the drama it would have even been a story - the coverage of the enquiry up to that point has pretty much gone under the radar.

Bradshaw was so out of his depth this morning it was excruciating to listen to. Lying through his teeth and tying himself in knots blaming his solicitors. If this guy is supposed to be a senior manager then that tells you everything you need to know about the Post Office.

I doubt very much based on what I heard he’ll face any criminal charges but on the plus side I don’t think there will be many people buying him a pint down the pub !! His life could be hell for a while this scandal rumbles on as I think it will get a lot worse as more things emerge. The public quite rightly are outraged and the government will look for anything and anybody to blame to deflect their own role in dragging this out unnecessarily over many years and allowing the Post Office (who they own let’s not forget) to get away with it.

[Nori1958]

Not so sure that’s the case. The CPS would at some point be surely hearing about other cases and asking the questions of the Post Office as to whether there are other cases.

The Treasury Select committee meeting this morning and interviewing the investigator Bradshaw was brutal.
This treasure select review is in its 3rd phase so this interview with Bradshaw was presumably arranged weeks or months ago.
Can you imagine what he must have been feeling in the last week or so since the TV drama and this being such massive news ? I doubt without the drama it would have even been a story - the coverage of the enquiry up to that point has pretty much gone under the radar.

Bradshaw was so out of his depth this morning it was excruciating to listen to. Lying through his teeth and tying himself in knots blaming his solicitors. If this guy is supposed to be a senior manager then that tells you everything you need to know about the Post Office.

I doubt very much based on what I heard he’ll face any criminal charges but on the plus side I don’t think there will be many people buying him a pint down the pub !! His life could be hell for a while this scandal rumbles on as I think it will get a lot worse as more things emerge. The public quite rightly are outraged and the government will look for anything and anybody to blame to deflect their own role in dragging this out unnecessarily over many years and allowing the Post Office (who they own let’s not forget) to get away with it.

In relation to your first paragraph in response to my post
My answer was in relation to judges and magistrates.. Which I can guarantee you 100% is the case. But however, what answer do you think the post office would have given the CPS.?

[Big Vinny K]

In relation to your first paragraph in response to my post
My answer was in relation to judges and magistrates.. Which I can guarantee you 100% is the case. But however, what answer do you think the post office would have given the CPS.?

Not sure why you think you can guarantee that 100% ?
The defendants solicitors would also be finding this out at some point soon after the first couple of cases. It was not long before the sub postmasters got wind of the lies that the Post Office were telling them that no other Post Offices were being impacted.
Once the defendant solicitors knew this of course they would be telling the magistrates and the judges thereafter - it was a big part of their defence case from early on.

[Nori1958]

Not sure why you think you can guarantee that 100% ?
The defendants solicitors would also be finding this out at some point soon after the first couple of cases. It was not long before the sub postmasters got wind of the lies that the Post Office were telling them that no other Post Offices were being impacted.
Once the defendant solicitors knew this of course they would be telling the magistrates and the judges thereafter - it was a big part of their defence case from early on.

It would only have come to light once the group started by the postmaster grew, and more cases came to light. How many cases had already been prosecuted by that stage? And iam not even sure the cps were involved.

I can guarantee that a magistrate sitting in Newcastle would not know what was happening in Birmingham, which was the example I gave, by the fact of working in the system for over 40yrs

[Big Vinny K]

It would only have come to light once the group started by the postmaster grew, and more cases came to light. How many cases had already been prosecuted by that stage? And iam not even sure the cps were involved.

I can guarantee that a magistrate sitting in Newcastle would not know what was happening in Birmingham, which was the example I gave, by the fact of working in the system for over 40yrs

As soon as awareness grew amongst them whether via the group Bates set up or other ways they communicated with each other (regional sub poster master meetings for example) then of course a magistrate in Newcastle could know what is happening in Birmingham.

Does not matter whether you worked there for 40 years or not at some point in the timeline we know that defendants were citing other cases…..and of course that could be in your example or any other 2 places or distance you want to give as an example.

[Nori1958]

As soon as awareness grew amongst them whether via the group Bates set up or other ways they communicated with each other (regional sub poster master meetings for example) then of course a magistrate in Newcastle could know what is happening in Birmingham.

Does not matter whether you worked there for 40 years or not at some point in the timeline we know that defendants were citing other cases…..and of course that could be in your example or any other 2 places or distance you want to give as an example.

How many court cases took place before it was apparant to anyone other than the post office, that similar cases were happening elsewhere? .... The whole gist of the thing is that people were pleading guilty etc because they were being told that they were the only one, that there were no more cases. And that would be the answer given to any defence solicitor, cps solicitor etc by the post office......
Unless I've missed it, there has been no official criticism of the cps, any judge or any magistrate, all of whom appear to have been misled by the post office....

[Big Vinny K]

How many court cases took place before it was apparant to anyone other than the post office, that similar cases were happening elsewhere? .... The whole gist of the thing is that people were pleading guilty etc because they were being told that they were the only one, that there were no more cases. And that would be the answer given to any defence solicitor, cps solicitor etc by the post office......
Unless I've missed it, there has been no official criticism of the cps, any judge or any magistrate, all of whom appear to have been misled by the post office....

Been plenty of criticism of the justice system.
Sub postmasters were being asked to admit things to avoid going to prison.

I don’t know how many specifically cases had been heard before it became knowledge between them - but thats kind of irrelevant to what you are saying because we know at some point that was definitely the case. Which means you cannot guarantee what you were saying.

Whether judges or magistrates could or would take this into account or not is another matter.

[Boss Hogg]

Agree with the list above about Bradshaw being completely out of his depth, lying and passing the buck. It was excruciating to listen to. He sounded as thick as mince. How on earth was he in charge of investigating anything.

[Spijed]

Agree with the list above about Bradshaw being completely out of his depth, lying and passing the buck. It was excruciating to listen to. He sounded as thick as mince. How on earth was he in charge of investigating anything.

Even more staggering to know he's still emloyed by the post office.

[Nori1958]

Been plenty of criticism of the justice system.
Sub postmasters were being asked to admit things to avoid going to prison.

I don’t know how many specifically cases had been heard before it became knowledge between them - but thats kind of irrelevant to what you are saying because we know at some point that was definitely the case. Which means you cannot guarantee what you were saying.

Whether judges or magistrates could or would take this into account or not is another matter.

People being asked to admit things is not down to judges or magistrates... Which was the original point I responded to with another poster

[ClaretLoup]

With reference to the Crown Prosecution Service my understanding is that only a small percentage of the cases were taken up by the CPS the vast majority of prosecutions were instigated privately by the Post Office.

[Boss Hogg]

Even more staggering to know he's still emloyed by the post office.

I hadn’t realised this beforehand. It’s astounding and he needs firing. The whole organisation looks riddled with incompetence.

[Paul Waine]

Been plenty of criticism of the justice system.
Sub postmasters were being asked to admit things to avoid going to prison.

I don’t know how many specifically cases had been heard before it became knowledge between them - but thats kind of irrelevant to what you are saying because we know at some point that was definitely the case. Which means you cannot guarantee what you were saying.

Whether judges or magistrates could or would take this into account or not is another matter.

If we look at the timelines, it was only in late 2008 that sub-postmasters started to get together with the first meeting in Fenny Compton. I think the 2nd meeting in Fenny Compton was mid-year 2009.

Computer Weekly has published a new article, 3-Jan-2024:

Post Office Horizon scandal explained: Everything you need to know
Computer Weekly has investigated the Post Office Horizon scandal since 2008 and is, in fact, part of the story. This guide contains essential information about the scandal

https://www.computerweekly.com/feature/ ... ed-to-know

I think it's highly unlikely that courts across the country had the opportunity to be aware that there were multiple prosecutions being brought by Post Office against sub-postmasters before 2008/09.

[corporal jones]

In terms of cock up, cover up and conspiracy this is as big as Hilsborough - without the deaths. From the date they realised that there was indeed a problem with Horizon everyone involved from Bradshaw and his mates to the very top of the PO and Fujitsu and also their legal advisors should be individually chatged with perverting the course of justice and fraud. But they wont-just like Hilsborough.
As for the compensation, it should come out of the PO pension fund and from the shareholders- not from the tax payer.

[Big Vinny K]

If we look at the timelines, it was only in late 2008 that sub-postmasters started to get together with the first meeting in Fenny Compton. I think the 2nd meeting in Fenny Compton was mid-year 2009.

Computer Weekly has published a new article, 3-Jan-2024:

Post Office Horizon scandal explained: Everything you need to know
Computer Weekly has investigated the Post Office Horizon scandal since 2008 and is, in fact, part of the story. This guide contains essential information about the scandal

https://www.computerweekly.com/feature/ ... ed-to-know

I think it's highly unlikely that courts across the country had the opportunity to be aware that there were multiple prosecutions being brought by Post Office against sub-postmasters before 2008/09.

I don’t know the specific timeline of the criminal cases Paul but I am just saying there was a point in this timeline when there was a realisation by defendants and the solicitors representing them that firstly sub postmasters had been lied to that they were the “only one” and secondly that the number of post offices being accused of this was a lot more widespread than anybody realised. And at this point (whenever this was) it became part of the defence that this could not be a coincidence that these all took place after the new system came in.

I don’t see how it was possible that judges from the time of this awareness was pretty widespread amongst the post master community would not have an understanding that the post office was bringing an unusually high number of these cases to court. We know that there was a number of cases brought to court after 2008 as well as before it.

[jrgbfc]

It's scary to think how many people like Bradshaw are in positions of power in this country. I'm sure we've all had bosses like that who either through brown nosing or being friends with the right people make it to the top. It's no wonder this country is so screwed.

[evensteadiereddie]

Fair point.

[ClaretLoup]

I don’t see how it was possible that judges from the time of this awareness was pretty widespread amongst the post master community would not have an understanding that the post office was bringing an unusually high number of these cases to court. We know that there was a number of cases brought to court after 2008 as well as before it.

However they must have been put off the scent of anything fishy due to the number of defendants pleading guilty in order to avoid prison sentences.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Post office investigator getting ripped you shreds in the inquiry live on BBC2.

Bit like watching my local idiot MP Jake Berry getting ripped to shreds by Ian Hislop over the Post Office scandal on Peston last night. Recently Jake has been spending his time getting angry about Easter Eggs.

[Big Vinny K]

Just watching the programme that was on the bbc last night - The Post Office Scandal.
It actually aired originally in 2022 i think.
Well worth a watch - especially with all the news that’s emerging every day now.
It’s every bit as jaw dropping, revealing and tragic as the documentary ITV did and it’s alarming that the politicians who must have been made aware of this chose to largely ignore it….I cannot remember one thing in 2022 that changed as a result of it.

[warksclaret]

I think we are just scratching the surface, and some real horror findings are going to come out of the cupboard, the deeper the Inquiry digs

[evensteadiereddie]

I think you're right.
I was astonished to discover today that Michael Keegan, the husband of the current Education Secretary, was the CEO of a large company's UK arm until relatively recently.
The company? Yup, you guessed it - Fujitsu.

[Big Vinny K]

It’s worse than that
Keegan’s husband was very recently awarded a massive IT contract in which sector ?
You guessed it ?
Education.

It’s proving difficult to not turn this into a political thread as i would bet my last penny some of the current set of sleeze balls are involved.

[Boss Hogg]

There is skeeze and corruption in all governments whichever party. The main issue here and on this thread is leaders of companies not only covering things up but in this case bringing about these horrendous wrongful convictions. Layers and layers of staff were involved. How can any credible company employ that ‘investigator’ who appeared at the enquiry today. It was a shameful display. Other than the hard working sub postmasters the organisation looks rotten to the core.

[knclaret]

The police didn't seem to be involved, similar to DWP the post office can investigate and take to court.

Quite a stitch up

[Big Vinny K]

https://apple.news/ANvIMznn1QSC7fg8k6fAtxQ

As said above more and more is going to come out about this and at some point we have to hope that the likes of Vennells will be proven beyond all doubt to have lied and covered up the truth….which is what we already know.

The link shows a bbc news story today about the panorama programme aired nearly 10 years ago. Pretty much everything in there is the same as their programme in 2022 and the ITV drama last week….nothing really new in there. The only difference is that for whatever reason the public and the politicians continued to be pretty apathetic about the whole thing. The Post Office even comment in the article of the lack of media reaction to the programme - ie we have got away with it and nobody really cares.

But what all this shows is they lied for nearly 2 decades until they were found out by the courts in 2019. And all that has happened since 2019 is that the enquiry as dragged its feet and between Post Office senior management and Fujitsu they have tried to lay the blame on others or play dumb saying at the time they were not aware of the issues…..but now with the heightened interest and attention there is simply too much evidence and too many people prepared to whistleblow for them to get away with it any longer.

That idiot Bradshaw who embarrassed himself in front of the enquiry yesterday is only one of 13 senior investigators that are going in front of the committee. Don’t expect the calibre of any of the others to be better and wait till the real top brass in the Post Office and Fujitsu are faced with this…..it’s going to be x rated stuff !

[Paul Waine]

https://apple.news/ANvIMznn1QSC7fg8k6fAtxQ

As said above more and more is going to come out about this and at some point we have to hope that the likes of Vennells will be proven beyond all doubt to have lied and covered up the truth….which is what we already know.

The link shows a bbc news story today about the panorama programme aired nearly 10 years ago. Pretty much everything in there is the same as their programme in 2022 and the ITV drama last week….nothing really new in there. The only difference is that for whatever reason the public and the politicians continued to be pretty apathetic about the whole thing. The Post Office even comment in the article of the lack of media reaction to the programme - ie we have got away with it and nobody really cares.

But what all this shows is they lied for nearly 2 decades until they were found out by the courts in 2019. And all that has happened since 2019 is that the enquiry as dragged its feet and between Post Office senior management and Fujitsu they have tried to lay the blame on others or play dumb saying at the time they were not aware of the issues…..but now with the heightened interest and attention there is simply too much evidence and too many people prepared to whistleblow for them to get away with it any longer.

That idiot Bradshaw who embarrassed himself in front of the enquiry yesterday is only one of 13 senior investigators that are going in front of the committee. Don’t expect the calibre of any of the others to be better and wait till the real top brass in the Post Office and Fujitsu are faced with this…..it’s going to be x rated stuff !

Yes, well worth watching the Panorama programme from 17th August 2015. But, it's just a 30 minutes programme in the middle of summer. I spent 3 weeks on holiday, Boston, Cape Cod, New York and Toronto. Later in August I spent 2 weeks in Houston for work. I've no idea whether I saw Panorama that August.

BBC website speaks of all their discussions with the Post Office at the time. Maybe, while BBC went ahead and broadcast Panorama somewhere along the line there were discussions that the programme would be broadcast in the quiet evenings of mid-summer when most people would miss it. One state owned entity, BBC, producing a programme that raises questions about another state owned entity, Post Office.

[evensteadiereddie]

There is skeeze and corruption in all governments whichever party. The main issue here and on this thread is leaders of companies not only covering things up but in this case bringing about these horrendous wrongful convictions. Layers and layers of staff were involved. How can any credible company employ that ‘investigator’ who appeared at the enquiry today. It was a shameful display. Other than the hard working sub postmasters the organisation looks rotten to the core.

I think the current lot seem to be sailing pretty close to the wind and, although you're right about what this thread is discussing, there is no escaping the unpalatable fact that the rot is not just with the Post Office.
Fingers crossed all the crooks are exposed.

[mdd2]

Just to redress some of this the PO will say there was quite a it of "false accounting" before Horizon went in so they were expecting some of the problems identified of money going missing and were therefore deaf to the notion that many if not all those "pilfering" were in fact innocent
If true the clue to there being a glitch was the lady on the drama showing her deficit doubled by flicking the switch again.
As with many things there are often clues to problems before the pennies fall from our eyes

[South West Claret.]

Another expose of this dreadful mis carriage of justice in today’s Observer:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... GTUK_email

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... GTUK_email

[South West Claret.]

And there’s more:


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... ed-scandal

[Quickenthetempo]

I think you're right.
I was astonished to discover today that Michael Keegan, the husband of the current Education Secretary, was the CEO of a large company's UK arm until relatively recently.
The company? Yup, you guessed it - Fujitsu.

Just seen a tweet saying this company get 10 grand a day for the emergency text message scheme.
Where everyone received one text message.

[bobinho]

Holy thread resurrection Batman....Turns out Tony Bliar (NOT a sp mistake) was warned it was flawed and likely to cause serious issues in the future, but chose to ignore it.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment ... 5c4d&ei=21

Who would've thought?

[evensteadiereddie]

You mean he's the only one to assume those in charge of the fiasco were being both competent and truthful when they denied any problems?
Blimey, who'd have thought it....

[Big Vinny K]

So which party was in power in 2014 when a government representative sat on the Sparrow sub committee ?
Because we now have documentary proof of the minutes of those Sparrow meetings which show they were aware that they had sent people to prison despite knowing the horizon system was dodgy as feck (I’m paraphrasing !!)

Guess David Cameron was hoping they wouldn’t make a hit TV drama 10 years later

[Paul Waine]

So which party was in power in 2014 when a government representative sat on the Sparrow sub committee ?
Because we now have documentary proof of the minutes of those Sparrow meetings which show they were aware that they had sent people to prison despite knowing the horizon system was dodgy as feck (I’m paraphrasing !!)

Guess David Cameron was hoping they wouldn’t make a hit TV drama 10 years later

Thing is, Big VK, the country had a Coalition Government from May 2010 to May 2015. LibDems had all the ministers for Post Office during that period. Firstly, Ed Davey from May 2010 to Feb (?) 2012. Then Norman Lamb until Sep 2012. Finally Jo Swinson until end of Coalition Government. Throughout these 5 years, Vincent Cable was the senior Minster above his 3 LibDem colleagues.

Guardian article, 12th January 2024 takes a look at "who is to blame."

Now we know that there was a civil servant serving on Post Office board sub-committee maybe some of the LibDem claims they were deceived by Post Office should be looked at again.

[FCBurnley]

Sounds fairly simple for the 1 shareholder of The Post Office to make good all losses to the people involved and pay restitution to those illegally imprisoned etc. Sadly nobody can bring back those who committed suicide.
This is government corruption plain and simple.

[Big Vinny K]

Thing is, Big VK, the country had a Coalition Government from May 2010 to May 2015. LibDems had all the ministers for Post Office during that period. Firstly, Ed Davey from May 2010 to Feb (?) 2012. Then Norman Lamb until Sep 2012. Finally Jo Swinson until end of Coalition Government. Throughout these 5 years, Vincent Cable was the senior Minster above his 3 LibDem colleagues.

Guardian article, 12th January 2024 takes a look at "who is to blame."

Now we know that there was a civil servant serving on Post Office board sub-committee maybe some of the LibDem claims they were deceived by Post Office should be looked at again.

Thing is Paul…..Cameron was still the PM.
And as you also know a coalition it was in name only. The Lib Dems sold their souls for 15 minutes of fame. And their legacy will be being the puppets of a government that brought in tuition fees !!

But in all seriousness I am sure there are plenty of people in that government, and the ones that preceded it and followed it that are also guilty at best for pure ignorance and at worst for being part of the cover up.

It will be an interesting few months ahead but I doubt all those to blame will get their just punishment.

[South West Claret.]

Sounds fairly simple for the 1 shareholder of The Post Office to make good all losses to the people involved and pay restitution to those illegally imprisoned etc. Sadly nobody can bring back those who committed suicide.
This is government corruption plain and simple.

I can see nothing to disagree with in that post FCB.

[Paul Waine]

Thing is Paul…..Cameron was still the PM.
And as you also know a coalition it was in name only. The Lib Dems sold their souls for 15 minutes of fame. And their legacy will be being the puppets of a government that brought in tuition fees !!

But in all seriousness I am sure there are plenty of people in that government, and the ones that preceded it and followed it that are also guilty at best for pure ignorance and at worst for being part of the cover up.

It will be an interesting few months ahead but I doubt all those to blame will get their just punishment.

I gave a lot of credit to LibDems for joining Coalition Government. Given the "world financial crisis" and the result of the general election, with no party winning a majority, some certainty was required in politics. In forming Coalition Government the 2 parties negotiated and agreed on each party's role and territory. The LibDems wanted Industry, which is why Vince Cable was the senior minister in Cabinet for Industry and why 3 less senior LibDems were ministers for Post Office (amongst other areas). Later, as the 5 years came towards the end the LibDems tried to separate themselves from many of the Government's decisions, but this was on party lines. I'm pretty sure LibDems were claiming their successes in the areas they controlled.

I feel the country has made a mess of university fees. On one hand it was always necessary that students paid something towards the costs of their university degrees. On the other, the country/taxpayers should also directly fund some of the costs. LibDems were wrong to campaign on abolishing student fees - the country didn't have the economics to provide free university education to the numbers that wanted to go to university. Splitting fees half and half would give everyone the opportunity
as well as the responsibility to aim to repay their loans
at more modest interest rates. They paid a price for this mistake - though Nick Clegg has done very well for himself with his Meta job after losing his re-election.

However, the silly student loan repayment terms are down to LibDems. And, albeit unintentionally, it has resulted in universities expanding massively to get all the student fee/loan money and adding all the "full fee" overseas students. Vincent Cable would never accept being anyone's "puppet."

I agree that many who could and should have done more to avoid/stop/end this scandal will walk away with no personal consequences.

[ClaretPete001]

I tend to wonder why everything is focused on Paul Vennells and not Adam Crozier - yes, the former head of the FA.

And again wonder whether it is because he became the head of ITV the Channel who created the Mr Bates vs the Post Office programme. Ironically, the very TV programme that purports to tell the truth seems to fail to do so.

I think Ed Davey and Vince Cable's defence of their role is amongst the most risible I've ever seen. And Ian Hislop's de-construction of 'Helmshore's finest' is toe curling given the Tories awarded her a CBE in 2019.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuNjMs2BxEs

The reality is that the Post Office paid off the Unions and lied persistently from 1999 and continued to do so even after Computer Weekly broke the story in 2009 and Private Eye made it an in joke in 2011.

Student loans were brought in by Margaret Thatcher and student fees by Tony Blair who made the famous speech about sending 50 per cent of students to University immediately landing young people with a debt and devaluing the degree.

The result is lots of debt and a devalued degree, which has reduced the graduate premiums in most areas outside of the South East.

Ultimately, Thatcher's supply side Neo-Liberalism adopted by Blair and Cameron has failed because it drives down wages so people have less to spend. Reduces long term investment so companies invest less in technology, which drives down productivity and encourages companies to make profit by driving down costs as opposed to investing for growth. The UK economy is slowly tuning into a corpse of low growth, cheap foreign labour and anemic productivity.

Aided and abetted by corrupt Gov'ts, a middle class Left obsessed with the socio-cultural and not the socio-economic issues and a population so soporific they would make Rip Van Winkle look like an amphetamine addict.

In the words of Corporal Frazier - we are doomed....!

[evensteadiereddie]

Indeed and the whole process seems to have deteriorated very quickly in the past ten years or so and continues to do so at an even more alarming rate.

[Big Vinny K]

Post Office victims set to be cleared under new law https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68369015

[GetIntoEm]

im not sure this is good news, i think it makes a mockery of our justice system.

can we carte blanche say that none of those accused committed any crime? i think individual cases need to be reviewed.

very dangerous precedence in my opinion.

[Paul Waine]

im not sure this is good news, i think it makes a mockery of our justice system.

can we carte blanche say that none of those accused committed any crime? i think individual cases need to be reviewed.

very dangerous precedence in my opinion.

I understand that the minister has accepted that some who have stolen from the post office will also benefit from this act. However, its better that the 900 who have been falsely found guilty are exonerated speedily, rather than spend many months (perhaps years) re-examining each case individually. Given the situation - and this started over 20 years ago - this has got to be the right decision.

[evensteadiereddie]

Oooh, right before the election. Who'd have thought?

[DAVETHEVICAR]

Still dragging on as it will be July before it becomes law and more of the Post Masters may have died by then
Government dragging it on longer than necessary
Should start making payments now imo

[AmbleClaret]

im not sure this is good news, i think it makes a mockery of our justice system.

can we carte blanche say that none of those accused committed any crime? i think individual cases need to be reviewed.

very dangerous precedence in my opinion.

Think you're missing the bigger picture, locking 100's of innocent people up ,many of whom would have been classed as 1st time offenders surely makes a bigger mockery of the system.