Mr Bates vs the Post Office

[taio]

I’ve already said above that I want to see prosecutions too.

Not sure why you think that because I have not mentioned it on a football forum before now that it has not been discussed before ?

It’s also a lot more complex than how I have tried to simplify it above. What happened to the post offices reconciliation systems is also very different to the discrepancies banks were seeing. At the time we had no idea what was happening at individual post offices and it was not a national news story either at the time.

But when it did become news and more and more details emerged then you did start to see the cross over and the common denominator too.

My comment about criminal proceedings was just a general comment - I wasn't suggesting for a moment you thought otherwise.

I'm genuinely intrigued as to why until now this has been under the radar. It's one of the biggest injustices I can recall and absolutely abhorrent.

Such is the injustice, I would have thought that anyone with prior knowledge (ie before the drama series) would have mentioned it before, including on a football forum.

[Papabendi]

I think there has been an awareness of this case prior to the TV series. I for one had been following it. Rather, I think it says more about the society we are living in these days that it takes a dramatisation on TV for mass interest in it to occur.

[Big Vinny K]

My comment about criminal proceedings was just a general comment - I wasn't suggesting for a moment you thought otherwise.

I'm genuinely intrigued as to why until now this has been under the radar. It's one of the biggest injustices I can recall and absolutely abhorrent.

Such is the injustice, I would have thought that anyone with prior knowledge (ie before the drama series) would have mentioned it before, including on a football forum.

I have been saying for several years it’s one of the worst cover up and injustices in recent times to colleagues and friends but I never for one minute thought about putting it on this messageboard. I can count on 2 fingers how many threads I have ever started !!

Just thought this thread was interesting and that the tv drama was very good and seems to have finally sparked public awareness and we know when that happens the politicians suddenly wake up from their slumber too. Only this morning it’s been reported on the news that the just secretary is talking about quashing all the criminal prosecutions automatically. Why did they not do this a decade ago ?

As has been said publications like Private Eye have been covering this story for years. The BBC have too - Panorama and the Jeremy Vine show on radio 2 has covered the story many times and interviewed many of the same people in portrayed the drama a number of times.

I don’t know why the general public or politicians have only started to realise the scale or seriousness of this until now.

But I do know that discrepancies in what the post office were charging banks that were making billions of pounds of profit would not make a very interesting TV drama…..and neither would any politician or government department be in the least bit interested if a bank told them about it. And even if they did given the reputation of banks they would have believed the Post Office before any bank !

[Big Vinny K]

My comment about criminal proceedings was just a general comment - I wasn't suggesting for a moment you thought otherwise.

I'm genuinely intrigued as to why until now this has been under the radar. It's one of the biggest injustices I can recall and absolutely abhorrent.

Such is the injustice, I would have thought that anyone with prior knowledge (ie before the drama series) would have mentioned it before, including on a football forum.

Again genuine question why has it been under your radar until now ?
There is actually very little or nothing new that came to light in the TV drama.
If you were aware of this before the tv drama why did you not post something on this messageboard ?

They are rhetorical questions really as I can fully understand why you would not do so and why unfortunately this issue is not at the top of everyone’s list of things to be worried or even outraged about in the last few years in particular. And even if it was it does not necessarily follow that you or myself or others would think of posting this on a football forum (irrespective of our background)

[Boss Hogg]

I think there has been an awareness of this case prior to the TV series. I for one had been following it. Rather, I think it says more about the society we are living in these days that it takes a dramatisation on TV for mass interest in it to occur.

?? If it has raised awareness then it’s a good thing.

[Big Vinny K]

?? If it has raised awareness then it’s a good thing.

It is a good thing you are correct but I think the point being made is why does it need a tv drama to do this ?

The innocent people have been fighting this for many years through every legitimate, legal and political process that exists in this country.

If those people for one minute thought that it was going to be a tv programme that changed the tide on this they would have saved themselves a lot of money, time and stress and produced the tv programme themselves 15 or 20 years ago. They could have hired Spielberg, Tom Hanks, Di Caprio etc and still have saved themselves millions.

[martintheaker]

I think there has been an awareness of this case prior to the TV series. I for one had been following it. Rather, I think it says more about the society we are living in these days that it takes a dramatisation on TV for mass interest in it to occur.

I think you’re right about injustice needing to be dramatised on TV to create awareness.

I hope a TV Executive somewhere picks up on the Contaminated Blood scandal. Thousands dead in the biggest treatment disaster in the history of the NHS with one more person dying every four days. Years and years of campaigning against successive governments covering up the details of what happened, millions of documents (evidence) destroyed.

The public inquiry is due to report in April this year, hopefully it will name those responsible.

Post Office, Hillsborough, Grenfell, Infected Blood… the list goes on.

We need a law in this country which introduces a duty of candour to stop the continual scandals and cover ups.

[Papabendi]

Big Vinny K

I have no reason to doubt anything you are saying. The one question I have is, if this truly was systemic across all Post Offices and the Post Offices’ major clients e.g. banks, and nothing was balancing / reconciling - how in a practical sense did this operate on this basis for the length of time that it did?

[taio]

Again genuine question why has it been under your radar until now ?
There is actually very little or nothing new that came to light in the TV drama.
If you were aware of this before the tv drama why did you not post something on this messageboard ?

They are rhetorical questions really as I can fully understand why you would not do so and why unfortunately this issue is not at the top of everyone’s list of things to be worried or even outraged about in the last few years in particular. And even if it was it does not necessarily follow that you or myself or others would think of posting this on a football forum (irrespective of our background)

The story and injustice is that shocking I'm surprised it hasn't had the exposure until now. I'm also surprised it hasn't been discussed on here - yes, it's a football forum but the topics discussed on here are obviously much broader than football. I guess, like me, it's because most people weren't sufficiently aware.

[Big Vinny K]

Big Vinny K

I have no reason to doubt anything you are saying. The one question I have is, if this truly was systemic across all Post Offices and the Post Offices’ major clients e.g. banks, and nothing was balancing / reconciling - how in a practical sense did this operate on this basis for the length of time that it did?

Hard to explain really.
It’s a number of years ago we are talking about for a start.
The Royal Mail and Post Office even today are one of the most backwards and bureaucratic organisations you can think of…..so try and imagine what they were like 20 years ago !!
Dealing with the Post Office was difficult in all kinds of ways. Not only were they hugely incompetent but everything took so long - in the normal commercial world things that may take months took years with them.
They were a huge powerful organisation too. We were not one of the big 4 or 5 banks so you can imagine how much work they did for the industry - it was billions of transactions….more than any single financial institution yet they were the least technologically advanced of everyone by some distance.

But they also knew that they were needed - their huge branch network and being effectively subsidised by the government meant it did not matter whether they made money or not. They had no real shareholders to satisfy. So in a way they had the banks over a barrel as the banks were slashing costs and branches.

Suppose what I am saying is that the banks expected a level of incompetence from the Post Office - they had always had this even before Horizon so this was just another characteristic of what had always happened.

Dealing with the Post Office was only a very small part of my job - and I was the most senior person in the bank who had the post office as a client. I know this was the case with equivalent people to me at other banks. I could have spent all of my time and all my teams time dealing with the Post Office but it would not have got us anywhere better or quicker - not because of us but because of the Post Office.

It sounds a bit glib I know but it just was not that important at the time and in the scheme of things not that much money either. Of course if I said the amounts it would sound a lot of money but you have to consider how big the banks are / were.

And in no way at all did the banks suffer like the post masters did - our issues pale into total insignificance compared to this.

[Boss Hogg]

It is a good thing you are correct but I think the point being made is why does it need a tv drama to do this ?

The innocent people have been fighting this for many years through every legitimate, legal and political process that exists in this country.

If those people for one minute thought that it was going to be a tv programme that changed the tide on this they would have saved themselves a lot of money, time and stress and produced the tv programme themselves 15 or 20 years ago. They could have hired Spielberg, Tom Hanks, Di Caprio etc and still have saved themselves millions.

I think everyone is on the same page here that it is a scandal and disgrace and clearly the post office executives and investigators tried to suppress people and hush this up. Dramatisation is sometimes needed for exposure and this has been done well and sympathetically. Mr Bates did a great job but the victims would not have had the resources to produce this or attract investors into producing something. It was hard enough just getting the claimants together. There is something wrong with a society that rewards a disgraceful CEO and not the wronged man on the street who fights for justice against all odds.

[Big Vinny K]

I think everyone is on the same page here that it is a scandal and disgrace and clearly the post office executives and investigators tried to suppress people and hush this up. Dramatisation is sometimes needed for exposure and this has been done well and sympathetically. Mr Bates did a great job but the victims would not have had the resources to produce this or attract investors into producing something. It was hard enough just getting the claimants together. There is something wrong with a society that rewards a disgraceful CEO and not the wronged man on the street who fights for justice against all odds.

Agreed. I was being a bit flippant sorry in suggesting they should have made their own tv programme. Of course this should not have been needed - they should have got justice the normal way. I think that was the point being made by the previous poster in saying it should not take a tv drama to get the correct level of awareness on such a remarkable level or corruption and injustice.

[Papabendi]

Hard to explain really.
It’s a number of years ago we are talking about for a start.
The Royal Mail and Post Office even today are one of the most backwards and bureaucratic organisations you can think of…..so try and imagine what they were like 20 years ago !!
Dealing with the Post Office was difficult in all kinds of ways. Not only were they hugely incompetent but everything took so long - in the normal commercial world things that may take months took years with them.
They were a huge powerful organisation too. We were not one of the big 4 or 5 banks so you can imagine how much work they did for the industry - it was billions of transactions….more than any single financial institution yet they were the least technologically advanced of everyone by some distance.

But they also knew that they were needed - their huge branch network and being effectively subsidised by the government meant it did not matter whether they made money or not. They had no real shareholders to satisfy. So in a way they had the banks over a barrel as the banks were slashing costs and branches.

Suppose what I am saying is that the banks expected a level of incompetence from the Post Office - they had always had this even before Horizon so this was just another characteristic of what had always happened.

Dealing with the Post Office was only a very small part of my job - and I was the most senior person in the bank who had the post office as a client. I know this was the case with equivalent people to me at other banks. I could have spent all of my time and all my teams time dealing with the Post Office but it would not have got us anywhere better or quicker - not because of us but because of the Post Office.

It sounds a bit glib I know but it just was not that important at the time and in the scheme of things not that much money either. Of course if I said the amounts it would sound a lot of money but you have to consider how big the banks are / were.

And in no way at all did the banks suffer like the post masters did - our issues pale into total insignificance compared to this.

If all banks had the same issues this rolls up into a large amount of transactions and a lot of money unreconciled which is ultimately the nuts and bolts of what a bank is about. Compounded by the number of years, and it starts to look doubtful that this could remain hidden?

[Big Vinny K]

If all banks had the same issues this rolls up into a large amount of transactions and a lot of money unreconciled which is ultimately the nuts and bolts of what a bank is about. Compounded by the number of years, and it starts to look doubtful that this could remain hidden?

I’ve not said how much it is - but it’s peanuts in the whole scheme of any banks profits or expenditure costs.
Not all banks had commercial agreements with the Post Office either.
My reference to it was more about highlighting deficiencies in Horizon data and systems. Banks having issues with a third party about its invoices is not a scandal or injustice - unlike what has happened with the sub postmasters. I experienced issues with other big 3rd parties not just the Post Office - companies like G4, Securicor etc

[Big Vinny K]

If all banks had the same issues this rolls up into a large amount of transactions and a lot of money unreconciled which is ultimately the nuts and bolts of what a bank is about. Compounded by the number of years, and it starts to look doubtful that this could remain hidden?

Oh and just to clarify as I said above the bank customers balances was not an issue. These were correct so there was no reconciliation issues here.
What I am referring to is what the Post Office were charging the banks for this services and the discrepancies in the transaction data. It’s a lot more complex than I am describing without going into the detail there are big differences in the way banks treat personal and business customers in terms of pricing and charging these customers.

[dsr]

If all banks had the same issues this rolls up into a large amount of transactions and a lot of money unreconciled which is ultimately the nuts and bolts of what a bank is about. Compounded by the number of years, and it starts to look doubtful that this could remain hidden?

The Post Office was providing correct data to the banks about the customer balances and transactions, but they were charging the banks the wrong fees. The banks didn't (and couldn't) reconcile the bank data to the individual Post Offices.

I suspect the banks didn't realised that the GPO was ripping off (and worse) its own staff. They would have just thought the GPO was unable to issue their own invoices correctly.

[Paul Waine]

It's an absolute outrage what has gone on. Disgusting. I had no insight into what has happened. I want to see criminal prosecutions. I don't understand why only now this has become widely known. It seems you were privy to it so why have you never mentioned it before?

Hi taio, you might want to take a look at link to Computer Weekly that Spijed posted Sat Jan 06. 2024 1:36 pm.

There's also a mass of information in the Paul Marshall speech to University of Law in 2021 - my post around 12:30 am today.

For convenience I've copy/pasted below.

Spijed wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 1:36 pm
They've had the contract with the post office extended!
https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366 ... nded-again
Great link to Computer Weekly - includes a timeline from 2009, with a lot of detail, of Post Office Horizon scandal. It also includes a link to an earlier Computer Weekly 2009 article.

It's also worth googling Paul Marshall and reading a speech he gave to University of Law in 2021. Marshall is KC representing subpostmasters.

"Scandal at the Post Office. The intersection of law, ethics and politics"

https://www.postofficetrial.com/2021/06 ... ch-to.html

In addition, again, if you are interested, Sunday Times has a report Mr Bates communications with LibDems, Ed Davey, Norman Lamb, Jo Swinson and Vince Cable, when they were in turn Government ministers in the Coalition Government with responsibilities for Post Office.

Re Big Vinny K's posts - he's referencing his experience when he was at one of the big banks. The relationship/contract the Post Office had with the subpostmasters and the relationship/contract the Post Office had with the big banks was very different. The Post Office chose to take legal action against the subpostmasters and force the subpostmasters to make good the discrepancies that were created by the faults in the Horizon system. Paul Marshall's account is the best I've seen about how the Post Office was doing this to innocent subpostmasters.

[ClaretTony]

I think there has been an awareness of this case prior to the TV series. I for one had been following it. Rather, I think it says more about the society we are living in these days that it takes a dramatisation on TV for mass interest in it to occur.

I think you are so right. It shouldn’t need a TV drama but in this case it’s at least highlighted just how serious this has been. It’s so easy for issues to be brushed under the carpet so we have to be thankful that it has been dramatised and people have become aware.

[Paul Waine]

I think you are so right. It shouldn’t need a TV drama but in this case it’s at least highlighted just how serious this has been. It’s so easy for issues to be brushed under the carpet so we have to be thankful that it has been dramatised and people have become aware.

It's very true that the 4 part ITV drama, first week in the New Year, has captured a lot of attention and generated a great deal of public interest.

There's a lot more been going on than just this Bates v Post Office drama. BBC Panorama covered it a few years ago. BBC Radio 4 also ran a report over a number of days. Computer Weekly has been reporting it since 2000 and again in 2009 and again more recently. Private Eye has covered it on a number of occasions. Questions have been asked in House of Commons from 2010/11 and many times since. Boris Johnson, when he was Prime Minister set up the Statutory Inquiry which has been going on since June 2021 - Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry: www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/ The main stream media has been reporting on events in the Statutory Inquiry and the successful appeals by some of the subpostmasters when this happened (2021 ?). Paula Vennels resigned from several directorships in 2021 following the outcome of court of appeal case.

It's good that we all want justice for the subpostmasters.

[ClaretTony]

And I believe the other woman involved, played by Katherine Kelly went to work for the Football Association of Wales but has since disappeared.

[Papabendi]

Oh and just to clarify as I said above the bank customers balances was not an issue. These were correct so there was no reconciliation issues here.
What I am referring to is what the Post Office were charging the banks for this services and the discrepancies in the transaction data. It’s a lot more complex than I am describing without going into the detail there are big differences in the way banks treat personal and business customers in terms of pricing and charging these customers.

Thanks for clarifying Big Vinny K

[claptrappers_union]

I just finished watching it. It is all very twee

[Big Vinny K]

I just finished watching it. It is all very twee

That’s what you took away from it ?

[claptrappers_union]

And the fact that Alan Bates always attempts to leave important meetings just before he learns of something really significant, as well as turning off television and news reports halfway through them discussing his case.

[Big Vinny K]

And the fact that Alan Bates always attempts to leave important meetings just before he learns of something really significant, as well as turning off television and news reports halfway through them discussing his case.

Tbf I did mention the second one of the above to my wife and said why do tv dramas always seem to that !! I’ll give you that one !!

Not sure those and “tweeness” would be many peoples main takeaways from the drama though - thank goodness.
The series is likely to have a bigger impact on them getting redress than any single event in the last 20 years or so. And that has to be a good thing.

[CoolClaret]

I think there has been an awareness of this case prior to the TV series. I for one had been following it. Rather, I think it says more about the society we are living in these days that it takes a dramatisation on TV for mass interest in it to occur.

Very fair comment that and is an indictment.

I’m not going to comment on this show particularly but at least it is raising awareness of the systemic injustices that happen far too often in Britain - especially for younger folks that weren’t really in the know about this growing up.

Not saying that this particular doc series is this btw, more what I’ve seen with other doc series’ or online campaigns, particularly on Netflix or YouTube -

Tend to create a lot of noise with sensationalist claims and offer no real follow up into the accusations - more just act as a piece to induce rage in the populace before moving on to the next ‘thing’.

My only hope is that hopefully this doc and this case finally leads to the punishment of all wrongful parties, and compensation/freedom for those that are innocent.

[claptrappers_union]

They also had there first meeting in that village hall in 2009 I think. Most of the cars that pulled into the car park had 09 or 59 plates… I suspect that's where postmasters spent their money, on brand new cars.

[yTib]

They also had there first meeting in that village hall in 2009 I think. Most of the cars that pulled into the car park had 09 or 59 plates… I suspect that's where postmasters spent their money, on brand new cars.

surely a dramatic anachronism.

a bit like you.

[claptrappers_union]

I wish they did pocket the money - that would’ve been a brilliant twist.

[Caballo]

They also had there first meeting in that village hall in 2009 I think. Most of the cars that pulled into the car park had 09 or 59 plates… I suspect that's where postmasters spent their money, on brand new cars.

You know that wasn't actually Fenny Compton village hall either? It's almost like it was a dramatisation and not a documentary!

[evensteadiereddie]

Excellent, Caballo.
If you're going to burn someone, you don't have to use a flamethrower....

[Big Vinny K]

Just checked my Thesaurus under “Twee” and surprisingly did not find the words suicide, bankruptcy, livelihood, corruption, injustice etc

Who’s have thunk it ?

[Nonayforever]

I wish they did pocket the money - that would’ve been a brilliant twist.

One of the reasons why the Post Office introduced Jujitsus Horizon system in the first place was to have a system that was resistant to fraud and money laundering.

[Papabendi]

They also had there first meeting in that village hall in 2009 I think. Most of the cars that pulled into the car park had 09 or 59 plates… I suspect that's where postmasters spent their money, on brand new cars.

How about this for a thought - if you have nothing constructive to add to this thread, maybe don't bother?

[Big Vinny K]

They also had there first meeting in that village hall in 2009 I think. Most of the cars that pulled into the car park had 09 or 59 plates… I suspect that's where postmasters spent their money, on brand new cars.

This really has got to be one of the dumbest comments I have ever seen on this board - and that is quite a high bar.

[Papabendi]

This really has got to be one of the dumbest comments I have ever seen on this board - and that is quite a high bar.

agreed.

[claptrappers_union]

Wow, I’m just joking. I knew it wasn't 100% real when I noticed Alan's wife and Angela van Den Bogerd lived on the same street in Manchester. They drank in the same pub and everything.

[Big Vinny K]

Wow, I’m just joking.

That went well for you then didn’t it ?
After watching the drama and presumably reading the rest of the thread your first thoughts were to call the programme “very twee” and crack a few jokes about people whose lives had been ruined buying new cars.

Ever thought of going into stand up ?

[claptrappers_union]

The show entertained me.

[nil_desperandum]

The show entertained me.

So your main emotion wasn't anger?
It didn't upset you at all?

[THEWELLERNUT70]

This really has got to be one of the dumbest comments I have ever seen on this board - and that is quite a high bar.

Thick as mince is the phrase that springs to mind, the plank probably thinks the whole thing is made up just for TV

Anyway the petition to have Vennells honour removed ( yes she really exists) has sailed passed the 1 million mark, I don't think I've seen one gain so much traction in such a short space of time and to my mind there's definitely been a pricking on conscience higher up the food chain which has corresponded to the airing of this 'twee' drama

[Big Vinny K]

Thick as mince is the phrase that springs to mind, the plank probably thinks the whole thing is made up just for TV

Anyway the petition to have Vennells honour removed ( yes she really exists) has sailed passed the 1 million mark, I don't think I've seen one gain so much traction in such a short space of time and to my mind there's definitely been a pricking on conscience higher up the food chain which has corresponded to the airing of this 'twee' drama

Yep I can’t remember a case getting so much traction so quickly on the back of a tv drama as this one.
That in itself is fantastic news for the sub post masters - it will never compensate them for what they have had to go through but at least they might finally get something.

And at least now there is a public awareness of the injustice and what they have been through.

At the same time it angers me that the same people in government who are now so behind the post masters are the same ones who have effectively done F all for 20 years. Isn’t it around 60 or 70 of the post masters that have died now ?

The government are the ones who own the Post Office ffs. And now purely because of public opinion the likes of Sunak can’t shut up about the injustice. It’s sickening.

[evensteadiereddie]

And it's election year of course. Even Sunak can't screw up this chance of gaining a few votes off the back of this - can he?

[Big Vinny K]

Aye - he was in Accrington Stanley today and answered a few questions about the Post Office scandal.

That Royston Vasey idiot MP of ours was by his side - and btw he looks like he’s eaten a post office

[THEWELLERNUT70]

Aye - he was in Accrington Stanley today and answered a few questions about the Post Office scandal.

That Royston Vasey idiot MP of ours was by his side - and btw he looks like he’s eaten a post office

He definitely seems to have really enjoyed the subsidised food and alcohol since he got in in Burnley

[nil_desperandum]

Aye - he was in Accrington Stanley today and answered a few questions about the Post Office scandal.

That Royston Vasey idiot MP of ours was by his side - and btw he looks like he’s eaten a post office

He was also in Burnley, but thankfully it has had relatively little coverage.

[Quickenthetempo]

A great drama about a sad story line.

If anyone hasn't already signed, then please do.
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/ ... N2xZTfUoZY

Over a million have signed it now. Only takes a few seconds if you haven't already.

[Westleigh]

Richard Branson has offered Mr & Mrs Bates an holiday on his island ,and also a cruise on one of his ships .

[Big Vinny K]

Richard Branson has offered Mr & Mrs Bates an holiday on his island ,and also a cruise on one of his ships .

Have they not been through enough ?

[Volvoclaret]

Is Claptrapper and Joey Barton one and the same?