Assignon, Esteve and Fofana

[jojomk1]

Fofana - certainly more positive since his performance at West Ham when I thought he offered so much as well as his goal. I'm not sure who should be playing in that role behind him but I don't think it's Amdouni or Odobert.

Or Obafemi, Brownhill, Berge, Larsen, Redmond or JBG
Surprised some people haven't suggested Beyer
And we do have a decent prospect in Foster who if/when fit should be before Fofana
Agree also on the other two - no better than what we have although we will be looking for a RB if it seems likely that Roberts goes to Leeds

[burnley007]

I like Steve and Assignon.

I think they can both go on to be good players.

They just need time.

As long as everyone at the club sticks to the plan long-term, it will come good. I absolutely believe that. But it takes time.

[D8BFC]

Let’s get this right, Esteve would look so much better if he didn’t have that clown O’Shea at the side of him!

[CoolClaret]

Let’s get this right, Esteve would look so much better if he didn’t have that clown O’Shea at the side of him!

Very harsh, I don't think O'Shea asked him to just fall over for West Ham's opener either.

[D8BFC]

Very harsh, I don't think O'Shea asked him to just fall over for West Ham's opener either.

No he definitely didn’t as he was still running back from the half way line after missing a header he was never going to win

[CoolClaret]

No he definitely didn’t as he was still running back from the half way line after missing a header he was never going to win

What you/we/I have to remember is that defending in this system will look very different than what we were accustomed to under SD. They have a lot less help from the midfield and have to cover a lot more space.

I think (bar some brainfart moments) Dara has done alright for us, certainly grown into the season.

[jedi_master]

Assignon - Improvement on what we had there but not convinced by him wholly. Makes some strange decisions and I won’t really be fussed either way on if we sign him.

Esteve - Looks like what he is really, a young lad trying his best in a league well above his current ability. He is one I think has a lot of improvement in him due to his age and physical attributes but he needs to cut out the incessant ball watching. His long distribution has also been poor.

Fofana - Mixed back as he was superb in those first couple of appearances and then looked lightweight and out of his depth against Palace and (particularly) Bournemouth. He was outstanding against West Ham though and there is definitely a player in there. I oddly think a season in the Championship to polish him up would be just what he needs as he is nowhere near Chelsea’s level. I doubt it’s possible but if he fancied a loan I reckon he would be in the 20 goal category for us next season.

[Anonymous Claret]

I saw Esteve at Palace recently and he was up against Mateta who looked a handful, and I think he played him well that day showing pace and physicality. Personally think he has good potential and very young still

Its always subjective watching a game. You only need to look at how refs and VAR interpret decisions.

On this matter I was also at Palace and I thought that Mateta destroyed Esteve that day. Over the course of the game but especially the first half where the action was right in front of us i thought that Mateta was consistently quicker and stronger than Esteve. Palace should have been 3 or 4 up by half time.

It would be interesting to see how others recalled it?

[ClaretLoup]

Were the new signings brought in to increase Burnley’s chance of surviving in the EPL or as an opportunity to check out some potential new investments on a sale or return basis? A bit of both maybe.

Re their effectiveness, since Fofana came into the side for his five and two bits of a game the Clarets have scored six goals and Fofana has been involved in four of them scoring 3. Notably the other three were scored by defenders and an opponent. So thumbs up for David.

The defence on the other hand has let in 15 goals in the five games that both loanees have started so no improvement and if anything, things have got worse. It doesn’t necessarily mean they are bad players and it’s difficult to assess their impact as the defence is a unit and as strong as its weakest link but effectively they appear to have made little or no difference.

[daveisaclaret]

I feel for Assignon and Esteve. Glimpses of good from both but effectively they do look like young, inexperienced defenders thrown into a bad Premier League team. That's not a knock on anyone involved, I think the signings were sensible, it's good that we tried something (especially something that is future-focused) but ultimately any real returns in terms of the league from these signings would have been a miracle.

I think Fofana looks like a real talent. Similar to above it's natural that a young, raw forward will go missing in some games for a team like us. Wouldn't be surprised if he gets at least a Maatsen-level chance at Chelsea over the summer.

[Silkyskills1]

What you/we/I have to remember is that defending in this system will look very different than what we were accustomed to under SD. They have a lot less help from the midfield and have to cover a lot more space.

I think (bar some brainfart moments) Dara has done alright for us, certainly grown into the season.

You are talking about 'Dara' our defender and not 'Dara The Chaser'? Not much between them to be fair.

[Foshiznik]

What a bizarre post.

Can you show me where anyone "in the industry" supports this?

Or is it made up bullshit?

He was highly rated in France, he's an under-21 French international, He was linked with Brighton, AC Milan, Sassuolo and Arsenal and although it doesn't mean anything other than it being an opinion of establishments - He's highly rated on Football Manager.

Whilst you might snigger at the final example, it's still a well established and highly acclaimed measuring stick for real life football clubs within the industry as it uses not only it's own scouts but also scouting tools also used within the sporting world.

It's certainly not "made up bullshit" and as you wanted me to cite this info, see below.

https://medium.com/@aspscouting/maxime- ... 665b5f8ca2

https://twitter.com/FTalentScout/status ... 3908345857

https://sempremilan.com/milan-maxime-es ... ng-reports

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/maxime- ... ler/842341

https://www.sussexlive.co.uk/sport/foot ... er-7893563

It's ok to have a differing opinion to them but don't dismiss more valuable or more important views if they don't agree with said opinion.

[aggi]

He was highly rated in France, he's an under-21 French international, He was linked with Brighton, AC Milan, Sassuolo and Arsenal and although it doesn't mean anything other than it being an opinion of establishments - He's highly rated on Football Manager.

Whilst you might snigger at the final example, it's still a well established and highly acclaimed measuring stick for real life football clubs within the industry as it uses not only it's own scouts but also scouting tools also used within the sporting world.

It's certainly not "made up bullshit" and as you wanted me to cite this info, see below.

https://medium.com/@aspscouting/maxime- ... 665b5f8ca2

https://twitter.com/FTalentScout/status ... 3908345857

https://sempremilan.com/milan-maxime-es ... ng-reports

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/maxime- ... ler/842341

https://www.sussexlive.co.uk/sport/foot ... er-7893563

It's ok to have a differing opinion to them but don't dismiss more valuable or more important views if they don't agree with said opinion.

I'm not sure that a couple of amateur bloggers counts as "in the industry", I probably have more claim to that than they do.

[CrosspoolClarets]

All three are young lads with a spirit that is welcome, a strut, but raw edges that get exposed at this level. That gets harder to live with for a defender where mistakes need to be every few games not every few minutes.

I would sign all three though given the chance. Also helps if we have 6-10 French speakers for obvious reasons, especially if their wider families can hang around together too.

[boyyanno]

He was highly rated in France, he's an under-21 French international, He was linked with Brighton, AC Milan, Sassuolo and Arsenal and although it doesn't mean anything other than it being an opinion of establishments - He's highly rated on Football Manager.

Whilst you might snigger at the final example, it's still a well established and highly acclaimed measuring stick for real life football clubs within the industry as it uses not only it's own scouts but also scouting tools also used within the sporting world.

It's certainly not "made up bullshit" and as you wanted me to cite this info, see below.

https://medium.com/@aspscouting/maxime- ... 665b5f8ca2

https://twitter.com/FTalentScout/status ... 3908345857

https://sempremilan.com/milan-maxime-es ... ng-reports

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/maxime- ... ler/842341

https://www.sussexlive.co.uk/sport/foot ... er-7893563

It's ok to have a differing opinion to them but don't dismiss more valuable or more important views if they don't agree with said opinion.

Where does anyone in the industry say that Esteve is better than O'Shea?

Oh...they don't?

So it is made up bullshit then. Thanks for clearing that up.

[AlargeClaret]

Anyone would think we’re nurturing the new Cafu/Nesta/Maldini triumvirate ,rather than a team of young talents ,especially defenders who are nowhere near Prem level .
It’s not the players per se , ( who I’d say 8/10 could easily play in most of the euro prem leagues )it’s the sheer class jump from Europa league /conference type middling leagues to the sheer “ best money can buy super elite “ level . It’s almost impossible to develop players in this cauldron ,as has been shown by our well meaning but incredibly naive board & manager .

[spt_claret]

Really enjoy the tired appeals to authority. "This industry pro says he's good so he must be" is not an argument, you have your own eyes and access to a lot of stats to build an argument.
On all 3: Think they started promising and have dropped to the rest of the level we were playing at, though Fofana still has flashes and may be on an upswing after WHU.

Assignon- Awful attitude, petulant faker. For that alone I can't take to him til he shakes it but I think he's declined defensively since his first appearance as well. Wouldn't keep.

Esteve- think he's a proper jack of all trades CB not the worst or best at anything. Potential, but I can see how you could fit Dara or Ekdal into a system right now, better. Seems more a buy for the model than anything we need currently.

Fofana- Erratic. Got raw talent but very erratic. Prefer him as a striker to winger or deep forward/CAM. Would happily loan next season in the Championship.

While we're on the Ekdal/O'Shea compared:

Ekdal- he's slow, but I think people really do make too much of it. Yes he was torrid against Fulham but look at the context - hes a right footer who was on the left, had a RB at LB besides him and the defensively anonymous Odobert providing no left sided cover. Want to see him at this level for a few games with the Music/Beyer unit before ruling him out but unlikely to. Think he'd star in a Dyche side and has great incisive passing.

O'Shea - got a lot of mistakes in him, has improved as the seasons gone on from very under par to up down, with an experienced head beside him i think he'd grow a lot. Very reminiscent of Nathan Collins in that regard. Think he's a 1:1 replacement for Bellis (who I believe would have had similar trajectory in the Prem) for half the price. Fine with persevering.

[Rileybobs]

On all 3: Think they started promising and have dropped to the rest of the level we were playing at, though Fofana still has flashes and may be on an upswing after WHU.

Think a lot of this comes from the positivity of seeing something new. People were raving about Esteve after his first appearance where he was fairly average, he was fine but not worthy of such high praise. He put a simple pass back to Trafford straight out for a corner - these things happen - but when it’s a one off they get overlooked. When we start to see similar mistakes on a regular basis reality starts to hit home and people become impatient. And O’Shea would have been crucified for the mistake Esteve made which essentially lost us the points on Saturday.

Assignon looked like an upgrade on initial viewing and it’s a bit disappointing that he hasn’t kicked on, and histrionics like at West Ham will certainly not endear him to fans.

Fofana looks the best of the three, which probably isn’t a surprise, and if we set up to his strengths he is the kind of player who could absolutely make a difference to a relegation battling team, which unfortunately we no longer are.

[123EasyasBFC]

We have seen the good the bad and the ugly in all 3 so far. Can’t decide whose position was harder to come intoc assignon and esteve coming into a back 5 that was making mistakes and leaking goals or fofana coming into a side that was and still is struggling for goals.

Not signing a full back in the summer apart from Delcroix being a crossover was a massive mistake

[criminalclaret]

Thought Esteve was solid today given the circumstances. Fofana was shite barely saw him ( wink, yes that is a joke before the pitchforks come out).

Jury is still out of Assignon for me. When his first booking happening on Murdryk about 17/18 mins hand on shoulder and pulled him down I thought he would be aware and cautious as he was on thin ice. But then he continued to do it.

The second yellow and pen was very very harsh, but again he's on a booking, the forwards know that and they can lure him in and he takes the bait. It's a carbon copy (hand on right shoulder of attacker) he was booked for 20 mins previously.

Not to jump on him, he does he does some lovely moves at times but I also think he misses a lot of footballing nouse. Seen it a few times at Bournemouth with some petulance etc.

He's a very frustrating player I can't work out if he offers more than what he detracts if you know what I mean.

[Cirrus_Minor]

I think all 3 are an improvement on what we had. Pity they weren't here earlier.

[Woodleyclaret]

Esteve looks a good signing .Don't forget OShea got panned early season and now one of our best players. Fofana looks quality and we need to move for a permanent deal.We don't want a repeat of the Tella fiasco were dithering lost us a top player . Assignon is developing well and looks worth a bid The sending off by Chelseas tame ref was outrageous

[boatshed bill]

I'd love it if we could keep Assignon, what's not to like with him?

[NewClaret]

Esteve is an absolute Rolls Royce in the making. Plays well beyond his years. Fantastic signing.

Bit unsure about Assignon. Looks a good player with poor decision making. If could iron that out he’d have real potential.

[boatshed bill]

Bit unsure about Assignon. Looks a good player with poor decision making. If could iron that out he’d have real potential.

Imagine Assignon vs Roberts. Different class IMO.

[NewClaret]

Imagine Assignon vs Roberts. Different class IMO.

That’s a fair point. Different gravy.

But equally don’t think Roberts would make errors like today. More mature.

[CoolClaret]

Esteve has impressed me the last two games - looks to have formed a good partnership with O'Shea and Muric and settled into it.

It's probably the first time where we've had sort of centre halves that can play that higher line and defend in space, due to their physical attributes, recovery pace etc, allowing us to press/recover the ball higher up the pitch.

[MDWat]

I like Esteve a lot. Looks to have all the materials to be a very, very good defender.

[criminalclaret]

But equally don’t think Roberts would make errors like today. More mature.

Assignon definitely lacks that maturity ( so do a lot of our players for that matter). But it's the fact he repeats the same offences without thought that frustrates me. Another experienced defender changes their gameplan after that first booking to not let their man the advantage. He still goes all guns blazing without thought

There is a belting player in there, some of his touches are lovely. He's just a bit brainless with his aggression. Smart opposition cop onto that very quickly and exploit it (like Murdryk did today)

[elwaclaret]

Esteve is an absolute Rolls Royce in the making. Plays well beyond his years. Fantastic signing.

Bit unsure about Assignon. Looks a good player with poor decision making. If could iron that out he’d have real potential.

Good decision making comes with experience…

[NewClaret]

Good decision making comes with experience…

Of course. And by the time a player like Assignon has experience we wouldn’t be able to afford him still have to be on our watch unfortunately.

[NewClaret]

Assignon definitely lacks that maturity ( so do a lot of our players for that matter). But it's the fact he repeats the same offences without thought that frustrates me. Another experienced defender changes their gameplan after that first booking to not let their man the advantage. He still goes all guns blazing without thought

There is a belting player in there, some of his touches are lovely. He's just a bit brainless with his aggression. Smart opposition cop onto that very quickly and exploit it (like Murdryk did today)

No arguments there. Needs to learn much more quickly. There is a player in there though, as you say.

[elwaclaret]

Of course. And by the time a player like Assignon has experience we wouldn’t be able to afford him still have to be on our watch unfortunately.

Quite right… and it is a four year plan, get them in before their value shoots up. For those who rubbished the term being wheeled out time and again forgot to realise the plan was to be fighting punch for punch at Premier League levels… having got the players who should/would eventually hold their own coming through, and use the odd big sale to keep investors happy and the odd splash in the transfer market when necessary.

[elwaclaret]

Just to point out it’s a case of back to the future from what I can gather, back to the conveyer belt of players stepping up from the periphery, but it is being fast tracked due to necessity at the moment.

[Holtyclaret]

Esteve looks a good signing .Don't forget OShea got panned early season and now one of our best players. Fofana looks quality and we need to move for a permanent deal.We don't want a repeat of the Tella fiasco were dithering lost us a top player . Assignon is developing well and looks worth a bid The sending off by Chelseas tame ref was outrageous

Unfortunately Fofana isn’t for sale. Just a loan but would be great if we could loan him again next season too.

[morninbob]

I'd love it if we could keep Assignon, what's not to like with him?

Him losing his head and doing something stupid?

[morninbob]

Good decision making comes with experience…

He's no kid though...

[taio]

He's no kid though...

He's just 23, doesn't have that many first team appearances, has only played a small handful of games in this country and should never have been sent off yesterday.

[elwaclaret]

He's no kid though...

See Taio’s post directly below your own.

[morninbob]

See Taio’s post directly below your own.

As I said, he's no kid.

[elwaclaret]

As I said, he's no kid.

He might not be a kid, but he lacks experience. How many games in the top league in the world? It is like expecting a go-carter to win in a F1 race on his fifth or sixth race.

[ClaretTony]

Some superb defending from both O'Shea and Estève yesterday, looking like to Burnley style central defenders getting blocks in. Assignon is such a mixed bag of very good and not so good although his red card was ridiiculous.

Fofana too can look some way short but then he scores and a player who can score goals is worth his weight in goal.

[claretspice]

For all it was not a foul and certainly not a yellow card, Assignon was naive and rash for the penalty yesterday. He'd got his body across Mudryk and kept pace with him (some feat). He then put his arm across Mudryk and gave him the excuse to go down. If you put an arm across when you don't need to, you are taking an unnecessary risk and plays to rhe general perception he's just a touch impetuous and ill disciplined right now (as indeed did the first yellow - unnecessary with Mudyrk running into traffic).

[warksclaret]

The decision on Fofana and Assignon may be out of our hands. Assignon shows good touches attacking but is a hot head and likely to be a bit naive when defending, invariably costing us points. Esteve has great promise. I was impressed with him at Palace marking Mateta who is a big physical and fast striker. Yesterday there were some very signs that O Shea and him could become a very good partnership, and they at least seem to stay fit unlike our other centre backs. He reads the game well

[taio]

Every neutral supporter and former professional footballer I've seen commenting has said the set of decisions was wrong. Really poor officiating.

[123EasyasBFC]

That’s a fair point. Different gravy.

But equally don’t think Roberts would make errors like today. More mature.

I wouldn’t actually class Roberts as being the most mature full backs. Had Roberts been in the situation that assignon faced yesterday there’s a good chance mudryk is already passed him.

Vitinho had a good second half at right back to

[criminalclaret]

For all it was not a foul and certainly not a yellow card, Assignon was naive and rash for the penalty yesterday. He'd got his body across Mudryk and kept pace with him (some feat). He then put his arm across Mudryk and gave him the excuse to go down. If you put an arm across when you don't need to, you are taking an unnecessary risk and plays to rhe general perception he's just a touch impetuous and ill disciplined right now (as indeed did the first yellow - unnecessary with Mudyrk running into traffic).

Bang on. This is what I mean by the lacking of footballing nouse at times on his defensive displays. Whether that's lack of game time, whether that's just nativity I'm just not sure.

He's been booked at 17 mins for exactly the same thing, he doesn't take that into consideration or adapt his marking. Then later on does all the hard work well against Murdryk until he does the exact same thing again with the hand on shoulder.

Mate, you've been pinged for it once, every Chelsea player will do anything to get you to do it again. ...then he does it again

We defended superbly since that red with the awareness that we couldn't give anything stupid away. But shouldn't have to go down to 10 to realise you can't go gung ho when you are on a yellow.

Taylor epitomy of composure yesterday. Years of experience guiding us out of the sh*t, not just him but JBG, Jay et al

[boatshed bill]

Him losing his head and doing something stupid?

Never a dull moment, though, is there?

[Bullabill]

Bang on. This is what I mean by the lacking of footballing nouse at times on his defensive displays. Whether that's lack of game time, whether that's just nativity I'm just not sure.

If it's nativity he'd be the youngest player ever.