Guessing game

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Elizabeth
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Guessing game

Post by Elizabeth » Sun May 09, 2021 5:32 pm

I don’t know the answer but surely some statistician will.
As we are approaching the end of the season I wonder how many PL goals have been ruled out for offside by VAR on ‘toenail’ decisions .
Would it be as many as 50?

Rileybobs
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Re: Guessing game

Post by Rileybobs » Sun May 09, 2021 5:34 pm

Would also be interesting to see how many have been awarded because of the VAR overturning the assistant’s decision. I suspect that would be far less though.

Devils_Advocate
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Re: Guessing game

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun May 09, 2021 5:38 pm

It does highlight how many close calls were probably being gotten wrong and how in the case of offside VAR really has improved the accuracy of the decision making

tiger76
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Re: Guessing game

Post by tiger76 » Sun May 09, 2021 5:46 pm

I'm afraid I don't know the answer either, but there doesn't seem to be a week that goes by without a controversial borderline offside decision being highlighted on MOTD, so I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the figure was actually higher than 50.

The Kane one yesterday was the straw that broke the camel's back for me, how anybody can adjudge that as being offside beats me, and if you're going to pixels how can you be certain either way, firstly do they take into account when the pass was made and the forward movement of the attacking player, of course he'll be showing momentum he's trying to go forwards for goodness sake.

What happened to giving the attacker the benefit of the doubt, or do we want to see less goals in the game. I thought that was precisely what the sport was about, and even that has been taken away now, because as soon as the ball hits the back of the net all the players are instantly looking at the officials to see whether it's going to be referred to the VAR person, so all the emotion is slowly being sucked out of the game.

Rileybobs
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Re: Guessing game

Post by Rileybobs » Sun May 09, 2021 5:50 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 5:46 pm
I'm afraid I don't know the answer either, but there doesn't seem to be a week that goes by without a controversial borderline offside decision being highlighted on MOTD, so I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the figure was actually higher than 50.

The Kane one yesterday was the straw that broke the camel's back for me, how anybody can adjudge that as being offside beats me, and if you're going to pixels how can you be certain either way, firstly do they take into account when the pass was made and the forward movement of the attacking player, of course he'll be showing momentum he's trying to go forwards for goodness sake.

What happened to giving the attacker the benefit of the doubt, or do we want to see less goals in the game. I thought that was precisely what the sport was about, and even that has been taken away now, because as soon as the ball hits the back of the net all the players are instantly looking at the officials to see whether it's going to be referred to the VAR person, so all the emotion is slowly being sucked out of the game.
Totally agree with the sentiment. I think the introduction of VAR has lessened my enjoyment of games. But in terms of the accuracy of the calls, the thing to bear in mind is that the technology and system used to determine offside calls is the same for every incident. So there is consistency in the calls and a clear offside/onside decision as a result.

In this regard it is no different to the goal line technology which will also be subject to a margin of error, although certainly a smaller one.

Ashingtonclaret46
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Re: Guessing game

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Sun May 09, 2021 5:51 pm

VAR ruling on off side is the only black and white decision that can be made by VAR, whichever way they look at things. VAR is always correct and is the future! Enjoy!!

bfcmik
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Re: Guessing game

Post by bfcmik » Sun May 09, 2021 6:04 pm

I still think VAR should be time limited. If they can't find a fault within, say, 30 seconds, then no offense has to be the decision.

DCWat
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Re: Guessing game

Post by DCWat » Sun May 09, 2021 6:09 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 5:51 pm
VAR ruling on off side is the only black and white decision that can be made by VAR, whichever way they look at things. VAR is always correct and is the future! Enjoy!!
It’s a shower of shite.

I’d rather lose the odd game to an offside that wasn’t given than have decisions analysed for minutes at a time.
This user liked this post: bobinho

Ashingtonclaret46
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Re: Guessing game

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Sun May 09, 2021 6:14 pm

DCWat wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:09 pm
It’s a shower of shite.

I’d rather lose the odd game to an offside that wasn’t given than have decisions analysed for minutes at a time.
You still get that in football away from the elite level and you talk about the game afterwards instead of VAR.
VAR was what those involved in the game wanted. It is totally media driven and is here to stay because David Elleray and his cronies have even been changing the Laws of the Game for the last few years so that they can further accommodate it.
Your sentiments are correct, however, it isn't going away!

Elizabeth
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Re: Guessing game

Post by Elizabeth » Sun May 09, 2021 6:17 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 5:34 pm
Would also be interesting to see how many have been awarded because of the VAR overturning the assistant’s decision. I suspect that would be far less though.
The interesting aspect of that is the effect of the assistants being told to keep their flag down and let the move continue.
In the games I’ve watched I have formed the impression that some assistants have been confused about this.
Watched a game yesterday and it was picked up by a pundit (grrrr) that the assistant seemed to allow play to go on , the move ended up out of danger near the half way line and the opportunity to flag offside had been lost.
Would it surprise anyone if this was another part of VAR that is changed for next season?

Elizabeth
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Re: Guessing game

Post by Elizabeth » Sun May 09, 2021 6:21 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 5:38 pm
It does highlight how many close calls were probably being gotten wrong and how in the case of offside VAR really has improved the accuracy of the decision making
If you’re calling close calls to include toenails and the size of a players nose , then you are probably correct.
I prefer goals and spectator enjoyment to finite accuracy .
Change the offside rule to something more acceptable to the majority.

DCWat
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Re: Guessing game

Post by DCWat » Sun May 09, 2021 6:24 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:14 pm
You still get that in football away from the elite level and you talk about the game afterwards instead of VAR.
VAR was what those involved in the game wanted. It is totally media driven and is here to stay because David Elleray and his cronies have even been changing the Laws of the Game for the last few years so that they can further accommodate it.
Your sentiments are correct, however, it isn't going away!
Which laws were altered ahead of the introduction of VAR in order to help to accommodate its introduction?

One thing that really bugs me is the lack of flagging for blatant offsides. I’ve seen plenty of near injuries on the back of this.

Do you know how well VAR has been taken to ok other countries? From what I understand, the way it’s used isn’t even consistent across leagues, which hardly nodes well for international competitions.

dougcollins
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Re: Guessing game

Post by dougcollins » Sun May 09, 2021 6:33 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 5:51 pm
VAR ruling on off side is the only black and white decision that can be made by VAR, whichever way they look at things. VAR is always correct and is the future! Enjoy!!
Well, you might say it is black and white - but there appears to be not a small amount of subjective offsides in VAR. The biggest problem for me is the continual changing of laws to fit VAR, rather than having VAR assist the laws already in place.

But I know I don't have to tell you that.

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Re: Guessing game

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun May 09, 2021 6:38 pm

Would you prefer consistency or common sense cos most fans scream for both which is not really possible?

Elizabeth
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Re: Guessing game

Post by Elizabeth » Sun May 09, 2021 6:39 pm

dougcollins wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 6:33 pm
Well, you might say it is black and white - but there appears to be not a small amount of subjective offsides in VAR. The biggest problem for me is the continual changing of laws to fit VAR, rather than having VAR assist the laws already in place.

But I know I don't have to tell you that.
That would mean these ‘toenail’ offsides remaining and when you ask people if they are becoming disillusioned with football this is one of the reasons given.
It’s already a massive let down when your team score , you cheer like mad, then 2 minutes later the goal is ruled out for an uncut toenail

huw.Y.WattfromWare
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Re: Guessing game

Post by huw.Y.WattfromWare » Sun May 09, 2021 7:20 pm

The sooner they make it feet only and the players have a chip in each boot the better.
I wanted VAR but these guys have made a total pigs ear of it. How Sterling could get caught from behind 4 times and it not be a pen is beyond me. He didn’t even slow down and cause the contact.

dsr
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Re: Guessing game

Post by dsr » Sun May 09, 2021 7:29 pm

The point about offside is that thirty years ago, the rule was changed so that level was onside instead of offside, the specific reason given in the laws was to give the forward an edge, and the specific guidance to linemen being that it was to be judged by normal eyesight, not to the inch.

I don't know if the current powers-that-be disagreed with that decision and actually want to disallow goals, or if they think the lawmakers genuinely did mean to give the forward an advantage of only a quarter of an inch, and not (as supposed at the time) a significant advantage.

But all they needed to do was to re-emphasis that level is to be judged by human eye, and it would make offside VAR reviews so much easier. The linesman's decision would be confirmed unless it was wrong.

As it stands, the VAR to-the-inch has two intended results and one unintended.

1. Of the "extra" goals that have been allowed since 1991 under the new rule, about half are now disallowed. RESULT - we get fewer goals.

2. Of the "extra" goals that have been allowed since 1991 and are still allowed because the toenail is in the right place, we have to wait two minutes before celebrating. RESULT - delay of game, loss of enjoyment.

3. This one wasn't wanted by the powers that be, I;m sure. Some goals are disallowed that should be allowed under the new rule, because the technology isn't accurate to at least 6 inches, probably more. RESULT - they all look stupid.

We now have different rules for different games. Sheffield Wednesday's thrid goal yesterday was legal because they still use pre-VAR rules, and the forward was level with the defender. Under PL rules with VAR, where level has been abolished, he would probably have been off.

Elizabeth
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Re: Guessing game

Post by Elizabeth » Sun May 09, 2021 7:37 pm

huw.Y.WattfromWare wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 7:20 pm
The sooner they make it feet only and the players have a chip in each boot the better.
I wanted VAR but these guys have made a total pigs ear of it. How Sterling could get caught from behind 4 times and it not be a pen is beyond me. He didn’t even slow down and cause the contact.
Sterling always slows down in the penalty box looking for contact. I hope this is one occasion he was wronged because the number of penalties that player has got for simulation ranks with the biggest cheats.
If you don’t believe me ask Dyche

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