When you look at the record book you may find a list of achievements.
There is no listing of over achievements, it's like an abstract concept, held only in the eyes of those who want to believe it
When you look at the record book you may find a list of achievements.
What on earth are you on about? You are sounding like a politician who has just been rumbled.dandeclaret wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:32 pmAnd when you assess that achievement against the expected achievement given resources etc available? In order to bring a context to that achievement, then what?
The answer is that he's kept a team that shouldn't be at this level in the premier league and qualified it for EuropeSomethingfishy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:34 pmI get the incredulity you place on what he said but ask yourself this. If we sacked Dyche and he was looking for work do you think he would get another Premier League job?
The answer is no.
I don't think anyone is arguing against/questioning that.Burnleyareback2 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:49 pmBeen trying to avoid this thread but a bottle of wine got the better of me.
If you don’t recognise what Sean Dyche has done for this club
No, I meant overachieving.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:55 pmDo you not mean "exceded my expectations"? Which is altogether both acceptable and completely different?
Burnley staying in the PL for six years and qualifying for Europe for instance is overachieving. If you can't immediately see that there's no point discussing it. Good night.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:59 pmHey look, we are not opposed to one another, so I would ask you very politely:
What did (or do) you set as an acceptable level of achievement?
I mean, you put it like that, and how on earth can anyone remotely living in the real world argue with that?
Without endless amounts of money no manager can achieve anymore than what SD has. The next manager would have exactly the same issues.alf_resco wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:56 pmI don't think anyone is arguing against/questioning that.
What concerns most folk is the here and now.
Dyche & his team need to show they can progress.
There comes a time fof all managers to leave because whatever they are trying/ have tried isn't working anymore.
EVERY manager has a sell-by date. Fact.
We don't need a "big name" manager though, because as Everton have shown it isn't a guarantee of anything.Vegas Claret wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:12 pmIF they sack Dyche and IF Pace wants to do what he says he wants to do then I would expect a "big name" to help attract players and someone who's team style is 100 times more entertaining than Dyche's football. Dyche has absolutely been a miracle worker for us but the football has been extremely hard to watch over the last few years.
So you can't answer the question, and choose to answer a different one... good night, sleep tight
You really are the master of the non-sequitur.
These ridiculous pro-Dyche statements actually do him (SD) no favours,
yeah I wasn't clear, I should have put a big name younger manager that has the publicity to along with itGodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:14 pmWe don't need a "big name" manager though, because as Everton have shown it isn't a guarantee of anything.
An up and coming manager with a clear idea of what they can do with our current squad and the changes they'd want to implement would be a better option.
but we're back in the same position, boring football and an old squad...UpTheClaretsFCBK wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:55 am
If we do end up in the Championship next season, I see no better candidate to help us bounce immediately back than Dyche.
we didn't qualify for Europe, we lost in the qualifying rounds, unless you also believe San Marino qualified for the World Cup.
This is a really good point, I honestly think going forward the best most teams can hope for is to be a yo-yo team. I'm not seeing many in the championship that will be able to compete at the top table.........probably only FulhamUpTheClaretsFCBK wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:55 am
The reintroduction of Leeds and Villa to the league when we've lost clubs like Stoke, West Brom, Fulham, Norwich etc was always going to complicate our survival chances and we've also recruited poorly during the last 3 seasons.
Rubbish, you don't need endless amounts of money, because picking up diamond's like Mee, Tarkowski, Pope Cornet, Taylor, McNeil, Trippier, Ings, Defour and so on didn't cost endless amounts of cash in fact most of our most expensive buys are the ones that have failed to deliver.
So why has no other team with limited resources managed to stay in the PL for more than a season or two?ClaretMov wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:48 amRubbish, you don't need endless amounts of money, because picking up diamond's like Mee, Tarkowski, Pope Cornet, Taylor, McNeil, Trippier, Ings, Defour and so on didn't cost endless amounts of cash in fact most of our most expensive buys are the ones that have failed to deliver.
It needs a change in formation when required, substitutions need to be made for strategy and formation sake not for like for like player change that doesn't alter the game, when other teams are losing or going for the win they take player's off and change shape something we never ever do, a fresh new manager that isn't stuck in the past with set in stone 442 plan A football that clearly doesn't work over the past going on two season's, the league has changed, teams have changed its a pity we haven't, we must be the only team no one does any scouting over, no one needs to watch us tactics wise because nothings changed in six year's.
Thank you Mr Dyche for some of the best memories I've had being a Claret, but no thank you now, it's gone stale and before he wipes all what he's done he needs to go.
Anyone know this lad in real life?ClaretMov wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:48 amRubbish, you don't need endless amounts of money, because picking up diamond's like Mee, Tarkowski, Pope Cornet, Taylor, McNeil, Trippier, Ings, Defour and so on didn't cost endless amounts of cash in fact most of our most expensive buys are the ones that have failed to deliver.
It needs a change in formation when required, substitutions need to be made for strategy and formation sake not for like for like player change that doesn't alter the game, when other teams are losing or going for the win they take player's off and change shape something we never ever do, a fresh new manager that isn't stuck in the past with set in stone 442 plan A football that clearly doesn't work over the past going on two season's, the league has changed, teams have changed its a pity we haven't, we must be the only team no one does any scouting over, no one needs to watch us tactics wise because nothings changed in six year's.
Thank you Mr Dyche for some of the best memories I've had being a Claret, but no thank you now, it's gone stale and before he wipes all what he's done he needs to go.
Okay plead his case, tell us all why Dyche stays, and please don't drag up crap about six years in the premier league because the last two have been painfulLancasterclaret wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:31 amAnyone know this lad in real life?
Someone should really check on him to make sure he's ok
I don’t agree with everything in his statement but he has made some good points.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:31 amAnyone know this lad in real life?
Someone should really check on him to make sure he's ok
Agree - good strategic recruitment, a decent youth system where the odd one makes it (see Brennan Johnson) and squad building is the absolute key to sustainability. I find it incredible how so many clubs get it so so wrong. It will be interesting to see if Brentford manage to stay up next season and don’t suffer the infamous second season syndrome.Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:08 amI don’t agree with everything in his statement but he has made some good points.
Look at that forest starting eleven yesterday. It cost 4.8m pounds. We have just signed a striker for three times that amount. Money can hinder a lot of things but that’s why good recruitment is key. Not offering contracts to over 30’s
And therefore neither is any other formation working considering any club of a comparable size drops like a stone when they get promoted.ClaretMov wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:27 amThat's us in the past, that's not us over the last 57 league games over the last season and a half, it's clearly not working now, the games moved on and team's don't need to do their homework on us to work out how to best us or stop us scoring, also the championship has moved on in the last six year's, if fan's think we will walk that division with Dyche and 442 then you're in for a shock
It's pushing it to say walked the championship. The trophy was up at Boro, as they thought we would bottle the last day hurdle. Boro bottled it as it happens in the last few weeks.Burnleyareback2 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:49 pmIf you don’t recognise what Sean Dyche has done for this club since picking it up from Howe, stopping the rot of goals conceded and transforming us into a team that has survived in the premier league and walked the championship then you really need to think about your perception of reality.
Well, Mr weirdo, some of us don't live on here. I've been on a pre-work walk
Weird
So you want someone to explain why Dyche should be allowed to stay but without using his current CV?
While I agree with the main thrust of your argument I think now is the time to give him our support, not call for his head.ClaretMov wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:48 amRubbish, you don't need endless amounts of money, because picking up diamond's like Mee, Tarkowski, Pope Cornet, Taylor, McNeil, Trippier, Ings, Defour and so on didn't cost endless amounts of cash in fact most of our most expensive buys are the ones that have failed to deliver.
It needs a change in formation when required, substitutions need to be made for strategy and formation sake not for like for like player change that doesn't alter the game, when other teams are losing or going for the win they take player's off and change shape something we never ever do, a fresh new manager that isn't stuck in the past with set in stone 442 plan A football that clearly doesn't work over the past going on two season's, the league has changed, teams have changed its a pity we haven't, we must be the only team no one does any scouting over, no one needs to watch us tactics wise because nothings changed in six year's.
Thank you Mr Dyche for some of the best memories I've had being a Claret, but no thank you now, it's gone stale and before he wipes all what he's done he needs to go.
Owd Eddie just about sums it up.evensteadiereddie wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:28 pmNo, they don't, deejay.
The Orient game and any other reference to the past is to put what is happening in the present in context.
Dyche is doing the best with what he has. The PL has moved on by clubs spending millions upon millions of pounds most of that money underpinned by incredibly wealthy backing.
We haven't got that , we have a small, loyal fanbase and a bunch of PL hangers-on , quite a few on here by the look of it , so Dyche formulated a framework which has managed to confound the critics and defy the odds.
For variour reasons, lack of funds especially, Dyche has had to stick to his system and mend and make do. No other manager has come anywhere near to his success in battling the odds and, remarkably, he's doing it again to some extent this season.
We are not out of it by a long shot, our midfield is inferior there's no doubt about it but to talk about sacking Dyche or rejigging the whole system is madness.
We're not getting hammered by anybody so there is some hope that any tweaking might get us the win we need for lift off.
My argument will always be that it's easier to stay in this league than win promotion to it.
Not fearful of change, but fearful of change for change sake...... which is what the vast majority of football clubs do, which is where Burnley have bucked the trend over the years of standing by managers. Most managerial changes don't affect the overall, long term, trajectory of the club. They bring inflated costs, unsettled personnel, and a cycle of change, that takes the easy decisions, rather than the critical decisions.Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:08 amI think some of us are now conditioned to think other managerial alternatives beyond dyche don’t exist & to a extent are fearful of change, he’s done a bloody good job previously but that was in the past & for everybody’s sake things need freshening up, new ideas & a new direction.
“2 bad decisions I reckon is all it takes to break years & years of good work” & 1 courageous & wise decision to stop the rot & bring some fans some hope & belief back & more encouragement towards the future, everything’s got a shelf life & a expiry date.dandeclaret wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:21 pmNot fearful of change, but fearful of change for change sake...... which is what the vast majority of football clubs do, which is where Burnley have bucked the trend over the years of standing by managers. Most managerial changes don't affect the overall, long term, trajectory of the club. They bring inflated costs, unsettled personnel, and a cycle of change, that takes the easy decisions, rather than the critical decisions.
Why are Burnley in the "Brown Stuff" - somebody said above "If you stand still, you go backwards". What should Burnley do to keep moving? Is the market moving faster than the club can? Has the successful strategy of mixing about a 3rd of the squad with up and coming players, and 2/3 experienced good professionals run it's course, or is it a transitional phase? Do the club resources (funds, scouting network, youth development, club support staff, language capabilities etc) even allow for it? Do they need to be more risk adverse - if so, what does the best, worst and expected case look like?
It's not black and white. MY own personal view is
1) The club has, and whilst they are in the premier league, will continue to over achieve. If you drew up the league ladder on the available resources (not just money - as highlighted above) I supect Burnley would be somewhere between 32 and 48 based on natural resources, and probably between 16 and 26 with the stuff premier league money has allowed them to invest in.
2) The club is approaching a restart phase of their strategy. That restart requires 1 of 2 things to happen - 1) funds to reshape the squad totally - unavailable to Burnley in the main or 2) Contracts to end, and funds available to invest in wages - happening this season
3) The scouting network has grown - players are being found further afield, I hope the club is putting the relevant support networks in place
4) The manager is proven - proven in the premier league where results have and continue to (in my opinion) exceed resources available. One mans stubborn, or another mans focused belief in a strategy. Like genius and stupidity, there's often a fine line. Swapping the manager, in my opinion, is unlikely to change the trajectory of the club in a positive manner, but is likely to lead to a worse manager taking the job (because of resources available, as mentioned above) and thus accelerating performance closer to the bottom end of expected / natural performance.
5) Managers go stale - I agree with this strongly. But, they can be reinvigorated, with the creation of the right challenge, or removal of constraints that cause frustration. I'd back a manager to be reinvigorated with a new challenge at a club, rather than replace him without giving a chance.
6) It's an entertainment business - 15 - 20 years ago, I would have been 100% in your camp, punching about below the level that Burnley's resources should have them, playing average no lose football under the crucifier - I would have been there with you 100%. However, when results outstrip resources, when the ongoing growth of the club is dependant on continuing to "Beat the market" then I can see, granted looking from a distance, why to the wider world, what Burnley keep doing looks amazing. I am also fully aware, if I was investing time and money to watch it every week, I would likely have a different view - and be closer to what I was saying about Waddle, Stan for a time, Cotterill, Laws and Howe. Being a bit older, does mean I can understand that middle ground a bit more. These are some of the very best players that many of us will have ever seen play for Burnley. They may look less effective at the level they are playing at, but comparisons to others lower down the leagues for us, does them a dis-service. They may not be good enough to stay up. Relegation from this division, at some point, is an inevitability for Burnley / Norwich / Brentford / Stoke / West Brom / Birmingham / Bolton / Blackburn / Barnsley / Reading and so on. It's how the club stops the spiral that's important, and 2 bad decisions I reckon is all it takes to break years and years of good work.
Anyway, enough of me rattling on, time for some dinner.