Exciting times

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Jakubclaret
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Re: Exciting times

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:52 am

paulatky wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:58 am
Jordan is spot on in those clips. The 1st one is from 12 months ago and outlines the effect relegation would have and that looks more than likely now.

Many of us thought, and said so, right at the outset
Some people didn’t though & some people to this day still think the sun shines out of their backsides, most of us do though know our onions regarding the takeover & finances & are well equipped to discuss this in length, unfortunately the people that do tend to talk about the takeover are the 1s wanting when it comes down to establishing basic facts.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by aggi » Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:56 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:30 pm
Hi Jakub, aggi isn't saying that BFC has £200 million debt and has been able to provide collateral (aka assets at least equal to or exceeding) £200 million, aggi is saying that BFC does not owe anyone, not MSD and not anyone else £200 million.

Yes, we can all agree ClaretPete's debt figure of £60 million. His other figure of £200 million is wrong by £140 million.

UTC
Well my point was more that if we end up with £200m of debt, and the collateral to go with it, in the Championship then either Burnley have a lot more assets than expected or ALK have a lot more assets than expected. Both of which change the doomsday scenario some have of £200m of debt being loaded onto the club.
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Re: Exciting times

Post by paulatky » Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:46 am

aggi wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:56 am
Well my point was more that if we end up with £200m of debt, and the collateral to go with it, in the Championship then either Burnley have a lot more assets than expected or ALK have a lot more assets than expected. Both of which change the doomsday scenario some have of £200m of debt being loaded onto the club.
The total purchase price , including what’s due to the smaller shareholders was approx £210m.

If ALK /Pace put in £20m-£30m that’s leaves a balance of £180m. £60m of that was a loan from MSD and part of the clubs cash pile will be used and ALK were hoping to get other investors on board to help pay the next instalments to MG & JB.

If £50m of the clubs own cash is used that would leave an external debt of say £130m after all share purchase commitments have been met

Interest at 9% on £130m = £11.7m per annum, a heavy chunk , on top of the loan repayments going forward without the premier league monies.

Pope, Cornet, Collins,McNeil , Taylor could be sold this summer to reduce the need for that additional debt.

Just my take on it

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:26 pm

paulatky wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:46 am
The total purchase price , including what’s due to the smaller shareholders was approx £210m.

If ALK /Pace put in £20m-£30m that’s leaves a balance of £180m. £60m of that was a loan from MSD and part of the clubs cash pile will be used and ALK were hoping to get other investors on board to help pay the next instalments to MG & JB.

If £50m of the clubs own cash is used that would leave an external debt of say £130m after all share purchase commitments have been met

Interest at 9% on £130m = £11.7m per annum, a heavy chunk , on top of the loan repayments going forward without the premier league monies.

Pope, Cornet, Collins,McNeil , Taylor could be sold this summer to reduce the need for that additional debt.

Just my take on it
If our best striker is going at 25m at the first sign of a offer whether it was a good offer or not it matters very little when you are selling out to then a relegation rival, basically anybody will be up for grabs such will be the desperation to meet the debt repayments, you are just running something into the ground & owning what’s left when the debts settled because you are effectively stifling growth.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by paulatky » Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:33 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:26 pm
If our best striker is going at 25m at the first sign of a offer whether it was a good offer or not it matters very little when you are selling out to then a relegation rival, basically anybody will be up for grabs such will be the desperation to meet the debt repayments, you are just running something into the ground & owning what’s left when the debts settled because you are effectively stifling growth.
I feel the Newcastle move by meeting the release clause figure was as much a business decision as it was a football decision.
They were weakening a competitor in the relegation battle

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:46 pm

paulatky wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:33 pm
I feel the Newcastle move by meeting the release clause figure was as much a business decision as it was a football decision.
They were weakening a competitor in the relegation battle
Without a doubt you are right, it wouldn’t surprise me at some point if SD joined Everton next season I can’t see lampard stopping there, I’m not sure any agreements are in place to stop SD taking up employment somewhere else as he was sacked he should be free to do whatever he likes.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:49 pm

Only a village idiot would turn down £25 million for a 30 year old striker who had scored 3 goals for us (and I think he's only got another two for Newcastle)

There is selling desperately to stave off debt, and there is selling because its a ridiculous offer

Wood is defo in the 2nd category
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Re: Exciting times

Post by Bosscat » Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:05 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:49 pm
Only a village idiot would turn down £25 million for a 30 year old striker who had scored 3 goals for us (and I think he's only got another two for Newcastle)

There is selling desperately to stave off debt, and there is selling because its a ridiculous offer

Wood is defo in the 2nd category
Definitely Lc

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Re: Exciting times

Post by paulatky » Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:14 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:49 pm
Only a village idiot would turn down £25 million for a 30 year old striker who had scored 3 goals for us (and I think he's only got another two for Newcastle)

There is selling desperately to stave off debt, and there is selling because its a ridiculous offer

Wood is defo in the 2nd category
I completely agree with you , only an village would pay that for Wood in purely a football sense , but the wider picture was that it was worth Newcastle paying that from a purely business sense.

Without the Newcastle t/o especially to the Saudis we would have had a far better chance of staying up this year.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:28 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:49 pm
Only a village idiot would turn down £25 million for a 30 year old striker who had scored 3 goals for us (and I think he's only got another two for Newcastle)

There is selling desperately to stave off debt, and there is selling because its a ridiculous offer

Wood is defo in the 2nd category
It’s a ridiculous offer but as a result we were more likely to be relegated and lose PL income.

So pretty poor business in the end

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Re: Exciting times

Post by RVclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:31 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:28 pm
It’s a ridiculous offer but as a result we were more likely to be relegated and lose PL income.

So pretty poor business in the end
Highly doubt we’d have improved significantly if he’d stayed. He had been absolutely awful all season. You saw in his interview at Newc he’d been in a ‘comfort zone’.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:35 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:31 pm
Highly doubt we’d have improved significantly if he’d stayed. He had been absolutely awful all season. You saw in his interview at Newc he’d been in a ‘comfort zone’.
We would have more chance with a proven goal scorer than not

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:39 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:28 pm
It’s a ridiculous offer but as a result we were more likely to be relegated and lose PL income.

So pretty poor business in the end
It’s poor because only the 50% or so got reinvested the outstanding remainder wasn’t spent on anybody else, the people that say it’s good business must think selling to relegation rivals & paying off interest on loans is a good business policy, we are all different to how we think & see things.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by spt_claret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:40 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:31 pm
Highly doubt we’d have improved significantly if he’d stayed. He had been absolutely awful all season. You saw in his interview at Newc he’d been in a ‘comfort zone’.
Not disputing Wood was doing awful but- Stylistically Weghorst is much more a Jay/Barnes replacement than Wood, even Jay is closer to Wood than Weghorst,Weghorst is somewhere between Jay and Barnes with far better technique than Barnes, excellent chest control,and surprisingly underwhelming heading ability. Don't just take my word, compare the stats on passing, dribbles,ground and aerial duels and heatmaps.

I think Weghorst was a targeted partner for Wood, not replacement. Wood thrived during Barnes' prime, I think Weghorst would drastically have improved Wood's performances given for a long time towards the end he had out of form partners and was himself too limited/specific in his role to perform as well without that support. There was the brief spell where he and Vydra clicked but it waned, we tried similar with Cornet in that role but it didn't really work.

Impossible to know but I believe had we retained Wood and brought in Weghorst on top, both would have scored more since January than they have in reality. It would have fit the setup better. While if you want Weghorst to be more advanced it requires a very different approach as he's not a Wood style centre forward.
Last edited by spt_claret on Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by RVclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:40 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:35 pm
We would have more chance with a proven goal scorer than not
See your point but I could say WW has more goal contributions in less games since joining (both Wood for us and Wood for Newc, in the latter case playing for a form team vs our poor showings).

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:46 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:40 pm
See your point but I could say WW has more goal contributions in less games since joining (both Wood for us and Wood for Newc, in the latter case playing for a form team vs our poor showings).
Wood was proven historically & knew our setup, we can’t definitely say 1 way or the other with 100% certainty but based on his track record & applying the logic of law of averages you would be expecting the form to improve thus the goal haul.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by quoonbeatz » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:21 pm

spt_claret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:40 pm

I think Weghorst was a targeted partner for Wood, not replacement.
He definitely wasn't. Wood not leaving = no Weghorst.
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Re: Exciting times

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:26 pm

Thanks for the links, Jakub.

I don't see anything that Simon Jordan is saying that is informative or a reliable insight. I would back my own knowledge and a few others on here, ahead of what Jordan says.

Yes, Jordan owned Crystal Palace for a few years and left them when Palace went into administration in 2010. The Times had an interview with him last year. He says he's lost/spent all of the £75 million that he'd had about two decades ago from sale of a mobile phone retail business.

I wish Jordan well with his TalkSport gigs.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by spt_claret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:30 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:21 pm
He definitely wasn't. Wood not leaving = no Weghorst.
Not disputing the transfer wouldn't have occurred without Wood leaving. Pace has said as much.
I am talking in terms of Dyches remarks on him being a long term target and how Weghorst would fit our system more as a partner than a swap.
The reality was he was signed as a swap, I am talking the longer term strategy and playstyle.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:30 pm

paulatky wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:14 pm
I completely agree with you , only an village would pay that for Wood in purely a football sense , but the wider picture was that it was worth Newcastle paying that from a purely business sense.

Without the Newcastle t/o especially to the Saudis we would have had a far better chance of staying up this year.
But Wood has to score 10 plus goals for us to stay up

He'd got three, and I think we all agree that he looked a less effective this season

Our job was to deal with him not playing for us, and that is probably where the manager and the team really failed to adapt to him leaving

Newcastle have stayed up because they spent a fortune on players and could out bid and out pay anyone else around, because they sold their soul to state sponsored sports washing scheme

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:31 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 1:28 pm
It’s a ridiculous offer but as a result we were more likely to be relegated and lose PL income.

So pretty poor business in the end
So we've been relegated because we've sold Chris Wood?

I think that is pushing it a bit

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:42 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:26 pm
Thanks for the links, Jakub.

I don't see anything that Simon Jordan is saying that is informative or a reliable insight. I would back my own knowledge and a few others on here, ahead of what Jordan says.

Yes, Jordan owned Crystal Palace for a few years and left them when Palace went into administration in 2010. The Times had an interview with him last year. He says he's lost/spent all of the £75 million that he'd had about two decades ago from sale of a mobile phone retail business.

I wish Jordan well with his TalkSport gigs.
I’d rather learn from somebody who’s made the mistakes than somebody who hasn’t.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by quoonbeatz » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:45 pm

spt_claret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:30 pm
Not disputing the transfer wouldn't have occurred without Wood leaving. Pace has said as much.
I am talking in terms of Dyches remarks on him being a long term target and how Weghorst would fit our system more as a partner than a swap.
The reality was he was signed as a swap, I am talking the longer term strategy and playstyle.
He wasn't a longer term target as such - remenber he's 30 - just someone they had monitored, so were able to act at the time. There was no way we were splashing out on him without Wood forcing the issue.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by spt_claret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:00 pm

quoonbeatz wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:45 pm
He wasn't a longer term target as such - remenber he's 30 - just someone they had monitored, so were able to act at the time. There was no way we were splashing out on him without Wood forcing the issue.
He's 29, 30 in August but I'll take your point on his age.
I do agree on the latter as I said.
I'm just saying I don't think strategically/tactically he was ever envisaged as a replacement and I suspect the longer term monitoring had been with a view to being Wood's partner, given their playstyles and how Jay has been pushed further forward and more into the Wood-type role than Weghorst.
You're debating how the transfer came about I'm debating what I suspect he was being monitored for. I'm not disagreeing in the slightest that we wouldn't have been able to make the transfer if Wood wasn't sold.
What I'd like to know is if we seriously pursued signing him prior to this window and what the stumbling blocks were.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by quoonbeatz » Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:44 pm

spt_claret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:00 pm
What I'd like to know is if we seriously pursued signing him prior to this window and what the stumbling blocks were.
We didn't.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:35 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:42 pm
I’d rather learn from somebody who’s made the mistakes than somebody who hasn’t.
That's a bit tough on those who haven't made any mistakes, isn't it?

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:11 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:35 pm
That's a bit tough on those who haven't made any mistakes, isn't it?
Ok fair enough granted that’s an excellent point, if any posters on this forum have previously been a chairman of a professional football club & not made any mistakes I’ll take that said posters word over Simon Jordan, until that happens I’m sticking with Simon Jordan as the font of all football knowledge.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Elizabeth » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:21 pm

I could not think of a worse description of what we fans are going through

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:31 pm

Interesting pre match report from the Southampton writer at the Athletic -
What if ALK had bought Southampton?

link avoids the paywall
https://archive.ph/7wnZF

not everyone knows the story about Southampton on the campaign by the board member (an Investment banker no less) to block any bid that involved borrowing

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Re: Exciting times

Post by aggi » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:01 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:26 pm
If our best striker is going at 25m at the first sign of a offer whether it was a good offer or not it matters very little when you are selling out to then a relegation rival, basically anybody will be up for grabs such will be the desperation to meet the debt repayments, you are just running something into the ground & owning what’s left when the debts settled because you are effectively stifling growth.
Here's a man who doesn't know his onions when it comes to release clauses.

By all accounts there was nothing we could do once the release clause was activated, it was nothing to do with a desperation to meet the debt repayments.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Blakesboots » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:04 pm

aggi wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:01 pm
Here's a man who doesn't know his onions when it comes to release clauses.

By all accounts there was nothing we could do once the release clause was activated, it was nothing to do with a desperation to meet the debt repayments.
Agree, once the clause is triggered then the club lost all control of the process. It may be that some clauses allow for the club to ‘match’ an offer from the triggering club but they’re few and far between as they’re easily manipulated.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:08 pm

aggi wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:01 pm
Here's a man who doesn't know his onions when it comes to release clauses.

By all accounts there was nothing we could do once the release clause was activated, it was nothing to do with a desperation to meet the debt repayments.
The release clause wasn’t applicable in that window, it’s been done to death, it was a summer release clause by all accounts according to SJ.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:13 pm

aggi wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:01 pm
Here's a man who doesn't know his onions when it comes to release clauses.

By all accounts there was nothing we could do once the release clause was activated, it was nothing to do with a desperation to meet the debt repayments.
https://talksport.com/football/1018963/ ... -news/amp/

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Tall Paul » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:16 pm

lol Jakub

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Re: Exciting times

Post by RicardoMontalban » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:23 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:08 pm
The release clause wasn’t applicable in that window, it’s been done to death, it was a summer release clause by all accounts according to SJ.
So one account, Simon Jordan. :lol:

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Re: Exciting times

Post by aggi » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:24 pm

paulatky wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:46 am
The total purchase price , including what’s due to the smaller shareholders was approx £210m.

If ALK /Pace put in £20m-£30m that’s leaves a balance of £180m. £60m of that was a loan from MSD and part of the clubs cash pile will be used and ALK were hoping to get other investors on board to help pay the next instalments to MG & JB.

If £50m of the clubs own cash is used that would leave an external debt of say £130m after all share purchase commitments have been met

Interest at 9% on £130m = £11.7m per annum, a heavy chunk , on top of the loan repayments going forward without the premier league monies.

Pope, Cornet, Collins,McNeil , Taylor could be sold this summer to reduce the need for that additional debt.

Just my take on it
The point was more

That extra £70m will be owed to the old directors (some of whom are still current directors). Will they be likely to charge interest at 9%, particularly as it would probably decrease the chance of them receiving payment?

Or, they may borrow the £70m from someone else to pay the old directors off. MSD can refuse to allow another party to use the same collateral that they have in the club so it seems likely that, in order to borrow extra money, they would need to find more collateral, i.e. more assets.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:28 pm

RicardoMontalban wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:23 pm
So one account, Simon Jordan. :lol:
Yes & I believe that.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by RicardoMontalban » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:33 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:28 pm
Yes & I believe that.
That’s fine, but many others don’t.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by claretandy » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:43 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:08 pm
The release clause wasn’t applicable in that window, it’s been done to death, it was a summer release clause by all accounts according to SJ.
The same Simon Jordan who told lies about Chris Wilder ?

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:45 pm

He's like a scud missile, once that mind is locked on something, nothing is changing it

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Re: Exciting times

Post by IanMcL » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:52 pm

aggi wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:01 pm
Here's a man who doesn't know his onions when it comes to release clauses.

By all accounts there was nothing we could do once the release clause was activated, it was nothing to do with a desperation to meet the debt repayments.
The reporting at the time, suggested the release clause could only be activated at the end of the season. This leaves the deal as pure profit gathering, to pay the interest.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by paulatky » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:55 pm

claretandy wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:43 pm
The same Simon Jordan who told lies about Chris Wilder ?
What lies are those ?

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Re: Exciting times

Post by RVclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:59 pm

IanMcL wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:52 pm
The reporting at the time, suggested the release clause could only be activated at the end of the season. This leaves the deal as pure profit gathering, to pay the interest.
What a load of s***. No reporting at the time suggested this except Jordan. He is literally the only one. Burnley FC literally confirmed a release clause was triggered now, as did Sean Dyche (your God / hero). Pace tried to re invest the full amount and had a deal break down with Zagreb for Mislav Orsic at the 11th hour.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by IanMcL » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:07 pm

You seem very excitable!

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Re: Exciting times

Post by claretandy » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:23 pm

paulatky wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:55 pm
What lies are those ?
He lied that Wilder had been invited to a recent game by the owners and Dyche didn't know.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by aggi » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:26 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:08 pm
The release clause wasn’t applicable in that window, it’s been done to death, it was a summer release clause by all accounts according to SJ.
Fair point, some bloke called Sean Dyche said "It happened quickly - when there was a release clause, they know what it is, which they obviously did, and they activated it. but obviously the oracle that is Simon Jordan is the one who really has the inside track.
These 2 users liked this post: RVclaret paulatky

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:37 pm

aggi wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:26 pm
Fair point, some bloke called Sean Dyche said "It happened quickly - when there was a release clause, they know what it is, which they obviously did, and they activated it. but obviously the oracle that is Simon Jordan is the one who really has the inside track.
Nobody from the club or Sean dyche did lie, the release clause was activated the only bit which was conveniently omitted was that the release clause didn’t apply until the summer, it’s naughty but in fairness that direct question wasn’t pressed.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Rileybobs » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:41 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:37 pm
Nobody from the club or Sean dyche did lie, the release clause was activated the only bit which was conveniently omitted was that the release clause didn’t apply until the summer, it’s naughty but in fairness that direct question wasn’t pressed.
:lol: How can a release clause be activated if it doesn’t apply? Can’t believe you’re still banging this drum with your head.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by paulatky » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:42 pm

claretandy wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:23 pm
He lied that Wilder had been invited to a recent game by the owners and Dyche didn't know.
Wilder would know Pace from his time at SU whilst Pace was looking to do a deal there.

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Re: Exciting times

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:44 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:41 pm
:lol: How can a release clause be activated if it doesn’t apply? Can’t believe you’re still banging this drum with your head.
I’m sure the extra 5m acted as a workaround! Nice try 😃

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