24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
arise_sir_charge
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:36 am
Been Liked: 1768 times
Has Liked: 41 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by arise_sir_charge » Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:15 pm

Hibsclaret wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:06 pm
This thread is about a tv show which covers a bloke going to prison and having his entire life affected by a couple of scrotes turning up uninvited to his private home armed with weapons that could kill his wife or child. A man that probably had no previous going to prison when serious criminals get off free to continue terrorising innocent people in our society. Why on earth it descends into wider issues that have no relevance to a tv show giving us information about how unjust our Country is at times, I have no idea.
Because certain people can’t help themselves and have some sort of agenda to push.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:25 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:15 pm
Because certain people can’t help themselves and have some sort of agenda to push.
Again, it isn't my fault if you don't read ALL the posts

Its pretty clear if you read ALL the posts from the top who I'm replying to

I had you down as someone who read ALL the posts, rather than selecting one at random and taking it out of context

And again, I've already said twice on this thread that everyone is appalled by those scrotes and that got ignored too

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Big Vinny K » Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:37 pm

Hibsclaret wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:06 pm
This thread is about a tv show which covers a bloke going to prison and having his entire life affected by a couple of scrotes turning up uninvited to his private home armed with weapons that could kill his wife or child. A man that probably had no previous going to prison when serious criminals get off free to continue terrorising innocent people in our society. Why on earth it descends into wider issues that have no relevance to a tv show giving us information about how unjust our Country is at times, I have no idea.
The thread is actually about the tv series not just last nights episode.
Personally I think it’s fine to discuss whether the series is true to life and actual experience if you have some experience of this. It’s also fine to have a discussion as to why we might be seeing the outcomes of a number of the cases they have shown and try and make sense of why this is happening.

I think we all agree that most of those people being held in custody are not the nicest members of society. It’s going to be a bit of a boring thread without the wider debate - for me at least !

Stanbill05
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:48 pm
Been Liked: 140 times
Has Liked: 54 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Stanbill05 » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:00 pm

It was the out of the blue attack on the "infuriated" that wound me up and the straw man reference to doctors waiting lists. There was literally no need to take it there, especially on a topic everyone seems to agree on..

arise_sir_charge
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:36 am
Been Liked: 1768 times
Has Liked: 41 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by arise_sir_charge » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:03 pm

Stanbill05 wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:00 pm
It was the out of the blue attack on the "infuriated" that wound me up and the straw man reference to doctors waiting lists. There was literally no need to take it there, especially on a topic everyone seems to agree on..
This^^^^

Venkys4eva
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:24 am
Been Liked: 139 times
Has Liked: 183 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Venkys4eva » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:09 pm

There is now a gofund me for Adam white thats already hit 20k, a worrhy cause.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/give-adam-white-justice
This user liked this post: Lancasterclaret

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:09 pm

Stanbill05 wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:00 pm
It was the out of the blue attack on the "infuriated" that wound me up and the straw man reference to doctors waiting lists. There was literally no need to take it there, especially on a topic everyone seems to agree on..
Yeah, and there goes another one

I've explained it already, and if you want to get all faux outrage, then crack on

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:10 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:03 pm
This^^^^
Keep it up mate, better than admitting you don't actually bother to read threads isn't it?

More than a little sad I feel

arise_sir_charge
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:36 am
Been Liked: 1768 times
Has Liked: 41 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by arise_sir_charge » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:12 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:10 pm
Keep it up mate, better than admitting you don't actually bother to read threads isn't it?

More than a little sad I feel
I’ve read it. Stand by what I’m saying ‘mate’.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:16 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:12 pm
I’ve read it. Stand by what I’m saying ‘mate’.
Then you are wrong (again)

I'm glad that someone has posted the link to that poor lad whose been let down, and I'm going to donate to it, and I'm sticking to my guns on this one because its obvious to people without an agenda who I'm replying to

Getting all outraged for (what I can only assume is some sort of weird message board kudos) is beyond silly, especially when we all agree on this

Nori1958
Posts: 3833
Joined: Tue May 03, 2022 10:45 am
Been Liked: 1112 times
Has Liked: 347 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Nori1958 » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:17 pm

Another interesting thread spoilt by the guy from North Lancashire
This user liked this post: burnleychris

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Lancasterclaret » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:18 pm

Oh goody, the resident troll is joining us

I think its safe to assume he isn't interested in reading either
This user liked this post: Steve1956

pushpinpussy
Posts: 2109
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:57 am
Been Liked: 891 times
Has Liked: 134 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by pushpinpussy » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:19 pm

Take it from me and this is from the defence perspective. The CPS do not throw out any case at all. However, due to the backlog and due to pressure on the court’s there has been a rise in deals being done by the Crown and defence. An example of this is I have just had a robbery matter dropped to a theft. However, the victims’ views are always considered before the deals are accepted by all parties. And that is only right.

Steve1956
Posts: 17178
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:57 pm
Been Liked: 6463 times
Has Liked: 2896 times
Location: Fife

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Steve1956 » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:22 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:18 pm
Oh goody, the resident troll is joining us

I think its safe to assume he isn't interested in reading either
Can he read ? :lol:

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Big Vinny K » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:27 pm

pushpinpussy wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:19 pm
Take it from me and this is from the defence perspective. The CPS do not throw out any case at all.
What is it you are saying here ?
Are you saying that the CPS do not reject cases submitted to them by the police ?

Nori1958
Posts: 3833
Joined: Tue May 03, 2022 10:45 am
Been Liked: 1112 times
Has Liked: 347 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Nori1958 » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:36 pm

Big Vinny K wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:27 pm
What is it you are saying here ?
Are you saying that the CPS do not reject cases submitted to them by the police ?
They most certainly do, on a daily basis, even this program has seen cases where the CPS refuse to allow the police to charge offenders.

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Big Vinny K » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:41 pm

I know they do
I’m trying to work out what it is he is saying

pushpinpussy
Posts: 2109
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:57 am
Been Liked: 891 times
Has Liked: 134 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by pushpinpussy » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:53 pm

Big Vinny K wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:27 pm
What is it you are saying here ?
Are you saying that the CPS do not reject cases submitted to them by the police ?
No I’m not saying that at all. Of course they throw cases out but only if the following two tests are not met. Firstly, is there a realistic prospect of conviction and secondly is it in the public interest. If it does not pass these tests, it won’t go any further. They do not charge someone because they can't be bothered.

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Big Vinny K » Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:17 pm

pushpinpussy wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:53 pm
No I’m not saying that at all. Of course they throw cases out but only if the following two tests are not met. Firstly, is there a realistic prospect of conviction and secondly is it in the public interest. If it does not pass these tests, it won’t go any further. They do not charge someone because they can't be bothered.
Bit difficult to understand that you meant something else when you said “ The CPS do not throw out any case at all”

But i don’t think anybody is saying they do not charge someone because they can’t be bothered are they ?

The issue for debate is clearly the threshold they set on evidence before they agree it should go to court. Let’s not pretend that this is a black and white area or that criteria does not change case to case or over various periods of time.

Aren’t you a defence lawyer ? You ok representing people who you know to be guilty ? Or telling them to make no comment ?

TsarBomba
Posts: 1619
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:51 pm
Been Liked: 1138 times
Has Liked: 288 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by TsarBomba » Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:35 pm

I can give many examples where CPS have suddenly given me a day to complete a set of actions in a case that are completely unnecessary, unrealistic, and unreasonable.

And I know exactly why they are doing it, so they can drop the case and say it’s our fault.

Unfortunately for them, I don’t let them get away with it.
These 4 users liked this post: Quickenthetempo bfcjg ClaretFelix Bosscat

Quickenthetempo
Posts: 17913
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:35 am
Been Liked: 3841 times
Has Liked: 2065 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Quickenthetempo » Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:58 pm

TsarBomba wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:35 pm
I can give many examples where CPS have suddenly given me a day to complete a set of actions in a case that are completely unnecessary, unrealistic, and unreasonable.

And I know exactly why they are doing it, so they can drop the case and say it’s our fault.

Unfortunately for them, I don’t let them get away with it.
Good on you.

ClaretFelix
Posts: 502
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:02 pm
Been Liked: 146 times
Has Liked: 123 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by ClaretFelix » Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:58 pm

TsarBomba wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:35 pm
I can give many examples where CPS have suddenly given me a day to complete a set of actions in a case that are completely unnecessary, unrealistic, and unreasonable.

And I know exactly why they are doing it, so they can drop the case and say it’s our fault.

Unfortunately for them, I don’t let them get away with it.
Exactly this.

The number of cases delayed to the point where either the victim has lost all faith and withdraws cooperation, or the number of tasks set by one of the lawyers means it really isn't in the public interest to pursue, is an absolute joke at the moment.

We all know why they are delaying reviewing files, the whole judicial system shut down unecessarily during Covid, leaving a ridiculous backlog, all the while Police officers were out and about 24hours a day continuing to arrest suspects, gather evidence and put the files together, just for it to sit on a desk (or computer) untouched.

Yet no sanctions have been brought against the CPS or Ministry of Justice.

DCWat
Posts: 9292
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:04 am
Been Liked: 4131 times
Has Liked: 3597 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by DCWat » Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:19 pm

Big Vinny K wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:17 pm
Aren’t you a defence lawyer ? You ok representing people who you know to be guilty ? Or telling them to make no comment ?
What alternative do you propose?

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Big Vinny K » Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:49 pm

DCWat wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:19 pm
What alternative do you propose?
1) defence lawyers not to represent people who they know to be guilty

2) suspects being questioned should have to answer the questions being asked.

Nothing radical really is it ?

Nori1958
Posts: 3833
Joined: Tue May 03, 2022 10:45 am
Been Liked: 1112 times
Has Liked: 347 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Nori1958 » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:39 am

Big Vinny K wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:49 pm
1) defence lawyers not to represent people who they know to be guilty

2) suspects being questioned should have to answer the questions being asked.

Nothing radical really is it ?
As much as I agree, it will never happen
everyone one is judged innocent until proven guilty, and entitled to a fair trial, which would be impossible unless legally represented

Maybe the courts could infer more on no comment interviews.

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Big Vinny K » Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:32 am

Nori1958 wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:39 am
As much as I agree, it will never happen
everyone one is judged innocent until proven guilty, and entitled to a fair trial, which would be impossible unless legally represented

Maybe the courts could infer more on no comment interviews.
Yes I know that’s how it works now.
But if a solicitor knows his client is guilty why should we start with a principle that they are presumed innocent ?
If they are guilty start with this principle and then the solicitor could represent them anyway - there may be extenuating circumstances or there could be a plea about the type of sentence etc.

if the principles that you base the system on relate more to the rights of a victim rather than a defendant surely it would be a better foundation for everything else.

Right now you have defendant solicitors defending criminals who they may know to be guilty. These criminals are often repeat offenders who have committed the same crime on many many occasions. The whole community and justice system knows they are guilty. But you are not allowed to bring up previous offences and they often walk out of the court (or it doesn’t even get to court) on a technicality.
They have refused to given any answers to the police because their defence lawyer has advised them to give no comment.

On the other side of this you have a victim. They have had to relive the whole crime, often gone through several interview and also been persuaded to give a victim statement. All very often to end up with no justice.

Logic tells you why would anybody put themselves through this if they were not telling the truth ?

So start with a principle that the victim is telling the truth and the perpetrator is guilty. It should be the defendant who is allowed to give a defendants statement after he has had to answer the questions of the police.

I know this is a radical change and people will say what about those people wrongly accused and who have gone down for crimes they did not do and that this is the whole basis of our fantastic world leading justice system etc ?

But I am not talking about these people because the defence solicitor would not know they are guilty and if they are innocent then you would hope that our systems are robust enough to deal with this.

I don’t pretend to have all the answers but for me I do not understand how you can watch a series like this and think that everything is ok. And for me part of this is that from the outset the law and the justice system appears to be weighted towards the defendant rather than the victim.

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:17 am

Big Vinny K wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:32 am
Yes I know that’s how it works now.
But if a solicitor knows his client is guilty why should we start with a principle that they are presumed innocent ?
If they are guilty start with this principle and then the solicitor could represent them anyway - there may be extenuating circumstances or there could be a plea about the type of sentence etc.

if the principles that you base the system on relate more to the rights of a victim rather than a defendant surely it would be a better foundation for everything else.

Right now you have defendant solicitors defending criminals who they may know to be guilty. These criminals are often repeat offenders who have committed the same crime on many many occasions. The whole community and justice system knows they are guilty. But you are not allowed to bring up previous offences and they often walk out of the court (or it doesn’t even get to court) on a technicality.
They have refused to given any answers to the police because their defence lawyer has advised them to give no comment.

On the other side of this you have a victim. They have had to relive the whole crime, often gone through several interview and also been persuaded to give a victim statement. All very often to end up with no justice.

Logic tells you why would anybody put themselves through this if they were not telling the truth ?

So start with a principle that the victim is telling the truth and the perpetrator is guilty. It should be the defendant who is allowed to give a defendants statement after he has had to answer the questions of the police.

I know this is a radical change and people will say what about those people wrongly accused and who have gone down for crimes they did not do and that this is the whole basis of our fantastic world leading justice system etc ?

But I am not talking about these people because the defence solicitor would not know they are guilty and if they are innocent then you would hope that our systems are robust enough to deal with this.

I don’t pretend to have all the answers but for me I do not understand how you can watch a series like this and think that everything is ok. And for me part of this is that from the outset the law and the justice system appears to be weighted towards the defendant rather than the victim.
I think removing the "innocent till proven guilty" is a very slippery slope tbh

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Big Vinny K » Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:01 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:17 am
I think removing the "innocent till proven guilty" is a very slippery slope tbh
It’s not really that what I am trying to say.
It’s more about changing the balance so the system is weighted more towards the victim than the defendant.
Of course I think there has to be things in place to ensure work has to be done to prove someone is guilty.

But my view is that it has become too difficult to prove this and part of this is the way that defendants and their solicitors are allowed to act.

The jury service I went on a few years ago really opened my eyes to this. I was lucky or unlucky enough to get a horrible case on child abuse. It was a series of incidents over many years and many children. The treatment and questioning of the children by the defenders solicitors was brutal. It was absolutely horrible to see and incredibly difficult for the victims. I won’t go into detail but it was a lot of “I put it to you that this did not happen and that you were etc etc”.
Yet the only time we heard the defendant speak over the 2 weeks was when he was shouting abuse at the judge, or a witness or the jury. He had refused to answer any questions from the prosecution.

I know this is an extreme example but as I said the programme we are discussing shows many many examples of why the balance we now have in the system is wrong and it will not be something that is fixed by getting rid of backlogs or more police or support resources (though I strongly believe that these things should happen but for other reasons like crime prevention, solving more crimes, victim support etc)
This user liked this post: Lancasterclaret

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:05 am

Big Vinny K wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:01 am
It’s not really that what I am trying to say.
It’s more about changing the balance so the system is weighted more towards the victim than the defendant.
Of course I think there has to be things in place to ensure work has to be done to prove someone is guilty.

But my view is that it has become too difficult to prove this and part of this is the way that defendants and their solicitors are allowed to act.

The jury service I went on a few years ago really opened my eyes to this. I was lucky or unlucky enough to get a horrible case on child abuse. It was a series of incidents over many years and many children. The treatment and questioning of the children by the defenders solicitors was brutal. It was absolutely horrible to see and incredibly difficult for the victims. I won’t go into detail but it was a lot of “I put it to you that this did not happen and that you were etc etc”.
Yet the only time we heard the defendant speak over the 2 weeks was when he was shouting abuse at the judge, or a witness or the jury. He had refused to answer any questions from the prosecution.

I know this is an extreme example but as I said the programme we are discussing shows many many examples of why the balance we now have in the system is wrong and it will not be something that is fixed by getting rid of backlogs or more police or support resources (though I strongly believe that these things should happen but for other reasons like crime prevention, solving more crimes, victim support etc)
I have to ask, but was he found guilty?

Burnley Ace
Posts: 3525
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:03 pm
Been Liked: 651 times
Has Liked: 2879 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:10 am

Big Vinny K wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:17 pm

Aren’t you a defence lawyer ? You ok representing people who you know to be guilty ? Or telling them to make no comment ?
It’s not his job to decide if someone is guilty or not, his job is to represent them and give the best advice in the circumstances. Often that’s going through the evidence and highlighting its strengths but if someone says they aren’t guilty then that’s what you go with.

As for “no comment” interview again given the Caution which starts “You do not have to say anything”. So why should you say something? The next bit “but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court”. If you aren’t going to rely on anything in Court or the Police don’t have sufficient evidence, why say anything at all?

But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court.

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Big Vinny K » Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:14 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:05 am
I have to ask, but was he found guilty?
Yes - on all 7 counts.
And I was nominated as foreman on the jury to say it 7 times !
This user liked this post: Lancasterclaret

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:19 am

Big Vinny K wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:14 am
Yes - on all 7 counts.
And I was nominated as foreman on the jury to say it 7 times !
So in this case, the system worked as designed?

I agree with absolutely everything you have said by the way, but I don't see how you can change it so that the defendant doesn't lose some of his rights which we are all entitled to

Maybe a code of conduct about behaviour of lawyers when dealing with horrible cases like this?

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Big Vinny K » Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:29 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:19 am
So in this case, the system worked as designed?

I agree with absolutely everything you have said by the way, but I don't see how you can change it so that the defendant doesn't lose some of his rights which we are all entitled to

Maybe a code of conduct about behaviour of lawyers when dealing with horrible cases like this?
There’s me thinking you were asking out of curiosity !!
I mentioned that case to highlight the difference between the treatment of victims and those on trial.
If you had sat through that case like I did you would see the extent and lengths the defence goes to try and get their clients off on technicalities or to try and trip up young victims (who btw in a couple of the cases had pretty severe learning difficulties)
And despite the evidence being overwhelming the jury deliberated for several hours and undoubtedly some of the tricks and “clever” questioning the defence solicitors raised contributed to the doubts in some jurors minds.

You could say that is our fantastic justice system in perfect action. Or you could take a view that despite this person being a serial child abuser over many years and a renowned one at that that in some of these cases it’s easy to see why they fail on technicalities
This user liked this post: Lancasterclaret

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:33 am

Big Vinny K wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:29 am
There’s me thinking you were asking out of curiosity !!
I mentioned that case to highlight the difference between the treatment of victims and those on trial.
If you had sat through that case like I did you would see the extent and lengths the defence goes to try and get their clients off on technicalities or to try and trip up young victims (who btw in a couple of the cases had pretty severe learning difficulties)
And despite the evidence being overwhelming the jury deliberated for several hours and undoubtedly some of the tricks and “clever” questioning the defence solicitors raised contributed to the doubts in some jurors minds.

You could say that is our fantastic justice system in perfect action. Or you could take a view that despite this person being a serial child abuser over many years and a renowned one at that that in some of these cases it’s easy to see why they fail on technicalities
It was a bit of both tbf

I do agree with you btw, but I don't know how you change it safely and without changing the fundamentals (ie right to remain silent, right to trial by jury, presumption of innocence etc etc)

Big Vinny K
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:57 pm
Been Liked: 1009 times
Has Liked: 275 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Big Vinny K » Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:52 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:33 am
It was a bit of both tbf

I do agree with you btw, but I don't know how you change it safely and without changing the fundamentals (ie right to remain silent, right to trial by jury, presumption of innocence etc etc)
I think it’s for others to work out how to make convicting people less difficult.
This is what I was intimating in terms of its not just about throwing more resources at the issue as you could just end up with even more programmes like this showing even more injustice but just dealt with more efficiently !!

And neither am I saying take away all the rights we are entitled to.

But start with the pretty conclusive premise that the current system and the way it treats victims and defendants is wrong and go from there in working out why and what needs to change. And yes I probably am over simplifying it but talk to any magistrate (and I have) or person in the police and you will get pretty unanimous agreement with this sentiment.
This user liked this post: Lancasterclaret

pushpinpussy
Posts: 2109
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:57 am
Been Liked: 891 times
Has Liked: 134 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by pushpinpussy » Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:12 am

Big Vinny K wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:14 am
Yes - on all 7 counts.
And I was nominated as foreman on the jury to say it 7 times !
I’m a bit concerned that you were nominated foreman of a Jury and you don’t understand the most basic principles. I think that sums up our system in a nutshell. Some of the things you are saying on this board would definitely make me question you ever being on a jury again such as “Logic tells you why would anybody put themselves through this if they were not telling the truth ?
Your mindset is already made up and this is dangerous. You are already insinuating they must be guilty. This is wrong. Trust me we see cases dropped nearly daily because of fabricated evidence by prosecution witnesses. Ie CCTV as come to light etc.
You say you are not allowed to bring up previous offences. Again, this is false. This is a complex area of law. If you are interested and, you want to understand it please look at section 101 of Criminal Justice Act 2003 and the 7 gateways.
For a start we do not defend the guilty. If they tell us they are guilty and then plead guilty in court what we then do is represent them in court for sentencing purposes to try and limit the damage.
If they tell us they are guilty, then plead not guilty in court then we must withdraw from m the case as we would be professionally embarrassed.
I am more than happy to tell people to go no comment in police interview. The defendant does not have to prove or disprove anything and take it from me there is more than on reason why people go no comment. For example, they don’t want to incriminate their mates, or they do not like the police or they don’t trust the police. I could go on.
Again, if you want to learn more please consider Section 34 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act (CJPOA) 1994 regarding adverse inferences and special warnings.
This user liked this post: Burnley Ace

Loyalclaret
Posts: 2015
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 426 times
Has Liked: 364 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Loyalclaret » Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:22 am

Big Vinny K wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:17 pm

Aren’t you a defence lawyer ? You ok representing people who you know to be guilty ? Or telling them to make no comment ?
Spin it around, is your family member happy treating people in the NHS who have caused their injuries through self harm? Should the NHS refuse to assist them?

I know solicitors who can't believe the charges clients are getting at the police station in the last couple of years and as PP says, the deals that are being agreed which benefit the accused.

pushpinpussy
Posts: 2109
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:57 am
Been Liked: 891 times
Has Liked: 134 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by pushpinpussy » Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:24 am

TsarBomba wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:35 pm
I can give many examples where CPS have suddenly given me a day to complete a set of actions in a case that are completely unnecessary, unrealistic, and unreasonable.

And I know exactly why they are doing it, so they can drop the case and say it’s our fault.

Unfortunately for them, I don’t let them get away with it.
If the CPS have given you a tight deadline it’s because you have sent the file to them with not enough evidence for them to charge. You are not a lawyer you are an independent investigator. The Code for Crown Prosecutors sets out general principles before they can charge. It is not their fault if you haven’t got sufficient evidence or investigated it properly prior to sending them the file.

ClaretFelix
Posts: 502
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:02 pm
Been Liked: 146 times
Has Liked: 123 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by ClaretFelix » Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:36 am

pushpinpussy wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:24 am
If the CPS have given you a tight deadline it’s because you have sent the file to them with not enough evidence for them to charge. You are not a lawyer you are an independent investigator. The Code for Crown Prosecutors sets out general principles before they can charge. It is not their fault if you haven’t got sufficient evidence or investigated it properly prior to sending them the file.

Not always the case. On occasion, some of the things requested bear no significance to the case and neither strengthen or weaken the prosecution nor would be considered to have been an item withheld from the defence.

Rileybobs
Posts: 16682
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:37 pm
Been Liked: 6891 times
Has Liked: 1471 times
Location: Leeds

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Rileybobs » Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:41 am

On reflection I think the sentence for the driver was probably fair. The jury no doubt took the extenuating circumstances into account but still found him guilty for 'causing serious injury by dangerous driving'. Is it possible that he plead guilty to this charge as a plea bargain to avoid a potentially lengthier sentence for GBH? I think the programme was edited quite cleverly to cause as much shock/impact as possible, and the viewer wasn't given access to any of the evidence presented to the jury.

It's worth remembering that the trial of the two scumbags was completely separate, and I presume details of one case were not made relevant in the trial of the other and vice versa. But the pathetic sentences handed down to these wastes of oxygen highlight a huge flaw in the system. That said, it would be a surprise if either of those lads stick to the terms of their sentence and avoid prison for much longer.

lakedistrictclaret
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:30 am
Been Liked: 517 times
Has Liked: 183 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by lakedistrictclaret » Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:42 am

I was a defence solicitor for thirty seven years until I retired in 2017, and what ppp has just said is entirely correct.
It seems to me that many people misunderstand the role of a defence solicitor. It is not to try to pull a fast one and get an obviously guilty defendant off, it is to challenge, fairly, the prosecution evidence. This principle is why the English legal system was the envy of the world. ( I say WAS, because twenty five years of shameful underfunding of the criminal justice system by a succession of governments, both Labour and Conservative, has almost brought the system to its knees).
One of the questions I was often asked was " how can you represent people if you know they're guilty? " As ppp says, you can mitigate for them in Court to try to reduce their sentence, or you can challenge the prosecution evidence. What you can't do is to knowingly allow them to put forward, either in the police station or in court, a defence which you know to be untrue.
A defence lawyer is an important part of our legal justice system. They guard against the police manufacturing evidence ( and, yes, I have come across this ) or the CPS withholding evidence which is detrimental to the prosecution case. Both scenarios are, however, now less common following the implementation of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, and subsequent legislation.
Going back to Monday night's programme, the solicitors for the two scrotes were quite right to advise their clients to go "no comment". The CCTV did not identify them clearly. As far as the chap whose house was burgled is concerned, whilst I have every sympathy for him, he went far too far, and a custodial sentence was inevitable. However, if I had been the sentencing judge, I'd have gone out of my way to find some way of suspending it.
These 3 users liked this post: Lancasterclaret whiffa pushpinpussy

TsarBomba
Posts: 1619
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:51 pm
Been Liked: 1138 times
Has Liked: 288 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by TsarBomba » Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:17 pm

pushpinpussy wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:24 am
If the CPS have given you a tight deadline it’s because you have sent the file to them with not enough evidence for them to charge. You are not a lawyer you are an independent investigator. The Code for Crown Prosecutors sets out general principles before they can charge. It is not their fault if you haven’t got sufficient evidence or investigated it properly prior to sending them the file.
Dial your tone down a bit.

You have no idea in what state I have sent any of my files to CPS, and assume it’s because there is not enough evidence or not been investigated properly.

Most of the issues I have with CPS are after charge, when the case has been sat with them for months.

Of course there are instances where something has been missed which CPS need- no issue with that.

But your suggestion that CPS don’t drop cases, or only do so if there’s no realistic prospect of conviction or not in the public interest is not strictly true. Some of their tactics are underhand.
These 2 users liked this post: ClaretFelix burnleychris

AmbleClaret
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:53 pm
Been Liked: 207 times
Has Liked: 110 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by AmbleClaret » Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:19 pm

On a positive note, the GoFund Me set up for Adam White has raised nearly £80k since Monday evening. I think that alone speaks volumes for what the general public think about the seeming injustice in this case.
These 2 users liked this post: Benson Anonymous

Benson
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:17 pm
Been Liked: 55 times
Has Liked: 86 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Benson » Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:22 pm

After reading this thread thoroughly I’m struggling to see where “the lass with a head scarf speaking foreign in their local tesco” fits in with all of this.😕
These 4 users liked this post: burnleychris barnes9 RVclaret Hapag Lloyd

Croydon Claret
Posts: 4092
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:03 pm
Been Liked: 1138 times
Has Liked: 756 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Croydon Claret » Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:48 pm

The bloke from Monday night is being sued for £1m by the two scrotes as compensation for their injuries

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/b ... y-28585443

Lancasterclaret
Posts: 23343
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:09 pm
Been Liked: 8058 times
Has Liked: 4714 times
Location: Riding the galactic winds in my X-wing

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:26 pm

Benson wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:22 pm
After reading this thread thoroughly I’m struggling to see where “the lass with a head scarf speaking foreign in their local tesco” fits in with all of this.😕
3 posts total, joined a couple of weeks ago

pushpinpussy
Posts: 2109
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:57 am
Been Liked: 891 times
Has Liked: 134 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by pushpinpussy » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:13 pm

TsarBomba wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:17 pm
Dial your tone down a bit.

You have no idea in what state I have sent any of my files to CPS, and assume it’s because there is not enough evidence or not been investigated properly.

Most of the issues I have with CPS are after charge, when the case has been sat with them for months.

Of course there are instances where something has been missed which CPS need- no issue with that.

But your suggestion that CPS don’t drop cases, or only do so if there’s no realistic prospect of conviction or not in the public interest is not strictly true. Some of their tactics are underhand.

Sorry but i don't trust you. I have had clients on RUI for well over a year before the police have even started to investigate the matter. No confidence in you whatsoever. Then at the last minute you try and throw a case together which inevitably gets thrown out. You might be able to blag other users on here but unfortunately not me.

Nori1958
Posts: 3833
Joined: Tue May 03, 2022 10:45 am
Been Liked: 1112 times
Has Liked: 347 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Nori1958 » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:24 pm

pushpinpussy wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:13 pm
Sorry but i don't trust you. I have had clients on RUI for well over a year before the police have even started to investigate the matter. No confidence in you whatsoever. Then at the last minute you try and throw a case together which inevitably gets thrown out. You might be able to blag other users on here but unfortunately not me.
Any decent defence solicitor would not have allowed their client to be RUI for over a year
This user liked this post: Bosscat

pushpinpussy
Posts: 2109
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:57 am
Been Liked: 891 times
Has Liked: 134 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by pushpinpussy » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:31 pm

Nori1958 wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:24 pm
Any decent defence solicitor would not have allowed their client to be RUI for over a year
You obviously have no idea about the system and how it works with that ridiculous comment.

Loyalclaret
Posts: 2015
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm
Been Liked: 426 times
Has Liked: 364 times

Re: 24 Hours in Police Custody New Series

Post by Loyalclaret » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:41 pm

Nori1958 wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:24 pm
Any decent defence solicitor would not have allowed their client to be RUI for over a year
Changed a little since you retired*

Post Reply